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Post by maat on May 9, 2006 6:47:39 GMT
See - it is good for your health - it's making you fighting fit ;D
Just as an aside, what is your favourite Masonic (?) book?
Maat
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Post by Siontific on May 9, 2006 6:48:31 GMT
I don't think we can be dismissive either way of the stories that link this, that or the other whether that story originates in the bible, one of Dan Browns book or any other book. The point being that we are unable to prove any links either way without evidence.
However, research does show some links in everything to something. It's sorting out which ones are true that is the hard part. That is why we have many different beliefs throughout the world in many different things.
So, there may be a link between modern day Freemasonry and the Templars or there may not. The exciting thing is looking at all the strands and comparing them all. If you are in to that sort of thing, of course.
At the end of the day, the one good thing is that people with think about the subject. Hopefully they will do something more than just listen to old stories and tales and actually delve into the history. For the few that will, they may find something they didn't expect or they might even dispel some old wives tales.
Research, thinking, openness, discussion, free-thought ....... it can only be good in the long run. It doesn't matter if some people start this process from a fanciful tale or from an historical document. At least it starts.
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Post by taylorsman on May 9, 2006 7:16:05 GMT
I'm with Maat, Sciontific and Russell on this. I can see no harm if people are attracted towards Freemasonry by the Da Vinci Code, National Treasure, etc as we get more than enough adverse publicity which must discourage people.
Like everything, even a conservative institution such as Freemasonry must change and adapt to survive and what may have attracted the last great influx of men after WW2-who are now dying off- is no longer attractive, perhaps even unappealing, to their grandsons.
My only concern is that some who do join will be disappointed and disillusioned by the reality especially here in England, and will drop out. I can't see a man who has been attracted by the Templars, Rennes le Chateau, Roslyn Chapel etc being satisfied by such mundane matters as Ladies Festivals in Bournemouth, Car Rallies or Clay Pigeon shooting. Co-Masonry however, being more Esoteric ab initio may gain from the likes of DVC, HBHF etc.
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Post by hollandr on May 9, 2006 11:24:55 GMT
>I can see no harm if people are attracted towards Freemasonry by the Da Vinci Code,
I think the attraction is not so much to Freemasonry but the idea of some secret that vivifies Christianity.
I suspect that people feel that there must be more and maybe in the DVC they get some slight inkling of it
If so, then the DVC may be trigger a search process by many people for some deeper truth
Cheers
Russell
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Post by ingo on May 9, 2006 12:27:40 GMT
I would compare the "Da Vinci Code" with the "Big Brother" soap. We all know stupid chicks and dull rednecks or lazy bums and how they live - but hey - its on the movies and we can follow more or less our voyerism. You do not have to live with them but you can watch them. Its entertainment, if you wanna leave you'll zap around. The book is the same. You do not have to be initiated but you can talk about freemasonry and conspiracy then. You do not know anything but you can act as someone who knows "the secrets".
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Post by leonardo on May 9, 2006 16:02:50 GMT
There are those who consider the Bible to be a work of fiction. And even some who, ironically enough, believe TDVC to contain more "truth." My point is: it matters little to some whether or not a book is accurate, but what it ignites within them.
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Post by ingo on May 10, 2006 6:52:25 GMT
No Steve, Co-Masonry will not benefit from DVC, because people who read that, willing to be initiated are looking for "secrets"! They do not seek to work on themselves. Ok, maybe the so-called clubbers (as you named them ) in freemasonry might not work on themselves too, but then they - as watched on this an other fora - they stay close if there is help needed. But the "secrets-lookers" just look out for sensation. If I had the only choice to initiate one thousand of "secret-lookers" into my lodge or to join a male-only "clubbing lodge" - I would proudly join the male-only lodge!
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Post by jason on May 10, 2006 7:39:01 GMT
Most don't know Freemasonry is so this will get people to ask questions. That is a good thing. When they ask they may like what they hear and pettion.
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Post by jratcliff on May 10, 2006 14:44:16 GMT
Did anyone else here actually read the DaVinci code? It says almost nothing about Freemasons or Freemasonry. It talks about a mythical organization 'The Priory of Sion' and makes oblique references to the 'Illuminati'. On Freemasonry itself, however, it is largely silent.
Am I missing something here? Do you guys believe in the 'Priory of Sion' hoax? Do you believe in the Illuminati?
Do you believe either of these things have anything to do with Freemasonry?
I'm confused...
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Post by mike on May 10, 2006 14:48:18 GMT
Did anyone else here actually read the DaVinci code? It says almost nothing about Freemasons or Freemasonry. It talks about a mythical organization 'The Priory of Sion' and makes oblique references to the 'Illuminati'. On Freemasonry itself, however, it is largely silent. Am I missing something here? Do you guys believe in the 'Priory of Sion' hoax? Do you believe in the Illuminati? Do you believe either of these things have anything to do with Freemasonry? I'm confused... I made exactly the same point over at TFM, Freemasonry is mentioned only in passing, however, I enjoyed the book a lot and can't wait for the film. M
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Post by billmcelligott on May 10, 2006 22:23:16 GMT
I just finished watching Channel 5 and the last program, of tonights series was on the Da Vinci code. One of the main points they made was that Freemasonry does not get much of a mention. So are we guilty of adopting it for the publicity ?
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ruffashlar
Member
Lodge Milncroft No. 1515 (GLoS), Govanhill Royal Arch Chapter 523 (S.G.R.A.C.S.)
Posts: 2,184
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Post by ruffashlar on May 11, 2006 0:06:42 GMT
I think we're a bit like poor Aubrey Beardsley, the louche illustrator at The Yellow Book who lost his job and all his contacts by being tarred with the same brush as Wilde and Bosey, despite not even being mentioned in the Wilde trial, and never having met any of the principal defendants.
There was a Beardley-shaped hole, that someone just like he just slotted naturally into, in the public perception. Now there's also such a thing in The Da Vinci Code: a Freemasonry-shaped hole, the space where the shadowy conspiratorial body ought to go. The public can't quite believe in Opus Dei, they want it to be the Masons again, their favourite villain.
And that is precisely whom they imagine is there.
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Post by hollandr on May 11, 2006 2:40:04 GMT
For a movement that is drifting into oblivion in many countries I would suggest that all publicity is good publicity.
Perhaps there are people out there sent into human form by TGAOTU to reform Masonry but Masonry being so small these days they have not found it.
So shall we ensure our web sites can provide useful information to those made curious by the DVC?
Should we have a whole section of this forum set up to cater to those who want to discuss what underlies the DVC.
There is a google group discussing DVC and their discussions (mainly early christian history), while a little heated are certainly detailed and often well informed.
Cheers
Russell
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2006 3:25:16 GMT
“The Da Vinci Code”, a wonderful work of fiction and it is just that fiction. I have not seen the movie yet (but I will, I like Tom Hanks) but I have read the book, several times. I am not going to go after Mr. Brown but I am going to go after my fellow Christians; neo-Gnostic, Roman Catholic and Protestants, I’m sure some of the shrapnel will hit the people who are anti organized religion also, collateral damage you know!
This whole controversy over a work of fiction is because the average Sunday, go to church and Wednesday is Bible Study Night Christians DO NOT KNOW THEIR FAITH and DO NOT KNOW WHAT THEY BELIEVE. That is not the fault of this book/film. And I dare say that most people do not know anything about other religious traditions.
Admittedly, Dan Brown is excellent at offering scrumptious snack food, and the masses aided by great marketing savvy ignore good scholarship and suck everything down hook, line and sinker!(Hold on we’ve got a Moby Dick here!) Brown states his greatest work of fiction right after the Title Page: “All descriptions of artwork, architecture, documents, and secret rituals are accurate.” (Does any Freemason remember ‘Leo Taxil”? Antis are still quoting him, one hundred years after he revealed his writings as a hoax.) Scholars of Art and Archeology have written scores of articles taking Mr. Brown to task concerning the inaccuracies of his claims, but they do not get front page or even reviewed in the popular media.
In his self created universe of pseudo-history, the fictional characters are used to call into question fundamental elements of the Christian faith: 1) the divinity of Christ 2) the validity of the four Gospels 3) the beliefs of the early Christian community. The part that really gets me is the claims of some of the ignorant reviewers that the novel unveils teachings of Gnosticism. As a (neo) Gnostic Catholic (and I say neo as I was not around at the time of the writings, I can only infer what was believed) I say that they should study more. Gnostic Christians did not question the Divinity of the Christ, as I stated in another post on this site, they questioned His physical/human form… He was a visible personal emanation of the One. A spirit. This is the basic difference between “Gnostic” and main line Christianity. The Christ had Thomas place his hand in the wounds to prove that he was “real” and not a spirit, even in the accepted Scriptures there are hints of Gnostic thought influencing spiritual theology of the early Christians. Any way back to Brown.
It is obvious to me in reading the Gospels that Brown’s claim that the Gospels are part of an ancient conspiracy by some of the Apostles to create a male-dominated, patriarchal Church that would stamp out the "sacred feminine" is false. Brown states in his pseudo-religious work of fiction that Jesus’ true intentions were to leave the Church under the charge of Mary Magdalene, with whom he maintained a romantic relationship. And that the Emperor Constantine supports the Apostles’ quest for power by outlawing competing gospels to avoid revealing the true story of who Jesus was and what He taught. None of this can be true. The last Apostle probably died ~ 90-100 C.E. (St. John the Evangelist) Constantine called the Council of Nicea in 325 C.E. a difference of ~225 years! How could Constantine “conspire” with the Apostles when they were all dead?
What power did women possess at that time? I think the power they possessed was similar to what they have today…. In Saudi Arabia and under Taliban rules. If it was the intention of the Apostles to rip power away from women (if they had any) you would expect the Gospels to reflect on the greatness of the men and the weakness of the women… just the opposite is displayed! The writers of the Gospels clearly showed the Apostles as men slow to understand the message of the Christ, unwilling to suffer, and incapable of loyalty to Jesus. Women were portrayed as the noble opposites of the Apostles. Mary Magdalene and Mary (the mother of Jesus) stand tall and way above the Apostles when they accompany Jesus to His crucifixion (all the Apostles ran away… with the exception of John). The Gospel of John highlights Jesus’ “scorn” of social conventions of his day that looked down on public contact with women. The Gospels also refers to women as “disciples” who share the mission of the Christ. And to prove beyond any doubt that women were important in Christianity the writers recorded that Jesus first appeared to Mary Magdalene before any of the Apostles. Does this sound like there was a conspiracy against the “sacred feminine”? If we are to believe Dan Brown’s fundamental claim that the authors of the Gospels wrote to conspire against Mary Magdalene and women in general, we also must believe they did a very poor job for there is no proof. (Now this did come about later under Pope Gregory the Great where he vilified Mary of Magdalene and associated her with the prostitute who washed Christ’s feet with her tears… different and unnamed woman.)
Brown in his novel is just trying to reinvigorate radical feminist sentiment by erecting a false conflict between the hierarchy (male) and the poor and downtrodden (female). The Jesus of the Gospels, (who his followers claimed to be the Son of God) was pro-woman like nobody else at that time! Dan that old story is like so very retro and like old! The man Jesus knew a woman’s value does not come from being equal to or better than a man, but from whom she is… a daughter of God! Beautifully unique in her own glory!
In the short term Dan Brown did not have me questioning my faith, in the long term I think it will be beneficial to “Christians” as they will ask themselves (as I did 30+years ago in Seminary) what and why do we believe.
My biggest fear is what Mr. Brown is going to be saying about the Craft in his next novel! After what he did to basic Christian beliefs what will he do to us?
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Post by hollandr on May 11, 2006 3:58:40 GMT
Cookie
I thought the key point about Gnostics (knowers) was that beliefs were unnecessary because they had direct perception of the inner worlds.
It is also debatable as to whether the recorded Jesus figure is actually a composite from 2 historical brothers.
I think also that we might be cautious about assuming too much about the roles possible for women in political families 2000 years ago. They might have been more powerful than we think. A bit like our saying that behind every great man stands a great woman.
As to whether DVC is "just... fiction", you may want to consider how it is that just fiction can energise so many millions of humans. Surely there is something more fundamental happening here.
It reminds me (being old enough) of those who explained that the Beatles were just a pop group
Cheers
Russell
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Post by xcentricool on May 13, 2006 14:55:53 GMT
i plan to see the movie but probably will wait for the dvd release i'm not a theater person i have researched this as well as the original bloodline theory etc so i find it interesting fictional but interesting none the less and i think if nothing else it will spark curiosity in masonry and that's never a bad thing
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Post by mrmason on May 13, 2006 17:07:42 GMT
I will just ask one question. If the Freemasons, KT, Rosslyn, Sinclairs,and the Templars are strongly linked through some sort of mystical or hidden secret, why did William St Clair( 1st GLoS, GM). sell the Rosslyn estate in 1736.
My whole argument is still the same. What has "The Da Vinci Code" got to do with freemasonry. Please someone tell me, cause I'm lost!!!!!
I dare to say it but it does seem to be our American brothers who have a completely wild concept of this subject. I had an argument on line one time with a brother from the USA who hadn't been to Scotland, hadn't been to the chapel, and insisted that there was never any worship carried out in the chapel or that it wasn't built for that purpose. The fact that I produced historical evidence that there were 4 altars in use in the chapel and that they were destroyed during the Reformation didn't seem to satisfy him. I've had other USA brethren demanding to know why the chapel has changed and isn't the same as it's described in the book when the've visited it.
Next thing is we'll see Dan Brown giving lectures to masonic lodges.
"God Help us".
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Post by leonardo on May 13, 2006 18:58:26 GMT
i plan to see the movie but probably will wait for the dvd release i'm not a theater person i have researched this as well as the original bloodline theory etc so i find it interesting fictional but interesting none the less and i think if nothing else it will spark curiosity in masonry and that's never a bad thing I don't like going to the cinema either, nothing to do with the cinema it self, but the thought of people's mobile going off at a most inconvenient time is enough to drive me up the wall. This problem has become so bad back here some theatres and cinemas are planning on putting some kind of blocking or scrambling device in order to combat to problem. It's as bad in some part of the UK. Ralph Fiennes was just about to deliver a key dialogue in a play he was acting in when suddenly someones mobile started ringing. Poor chap. Apparently it had happened once too often and he gave out to the person responsible from the stage. Seems he apologised later but at least it helped highlight to problem. This is one reason I don't like cinemas but I will make an exception this time around
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Post by a on May 13, 2006 19:54:21 GMT
I will just ask one question. If the Freemasons, KT, Rosslyn, Sinclairs,and the Templars are strongly linked through some sort of mystical or hidden secret, why did William St Clair( 1st GLoS, GM). sell the Rosslyn estate in 1736. Perhaps he needed the money? MrMason, I feel awkward writing this post, and please take this as an attempt to help not me trying to teach you to suck eggs. The "hidden secret" which links all initiatic organisations, and individuals on the Path, which in theory at least includes Freemasons, and I know that it does include parts of Freemasonry from my own travels, and this is evidenced by the comasonic and esoteric posters here, is no more and no less that knowledge of yourself. Know yourself is not just an academic phrase but it is also a gateway to answering the meaning of life question. And the Masonic path can take you there. The secret is very real, and can only be accessed through difficult internal Work: The Craft (in Lodges that understand this) offers one method of getting a leg up so to speak as you travel on your journey. The secret has nothing to do with anything physical. This is a common misconception by people who seek power in the physical world or who are at the early stages of their journey. The secret has to be found by the person who seeks it, and that person could be a King, an Aristo, A Commoner, A prisoner, or a Mental Patient. You could be in remotest Africa or in London. A millionaire or a pauper. It does not matter. You cannot buy it. You can not torture someone to give it to you (well you could but you would always fail), but you can find it through, for example, Masonic work. I hope that my opinions above help. If you want to test this MrMason fill your Grand Lodge room with your members (actually a bigger room would be better), give me a couple of hours and I am confident that by the end of it at least a few will begin to feel it a bit more clearly. They in time will reflect and educate those who trust them, who will then educate and inspire others. And in a few short years what has been lost will be refound. Not by every Freemason that is for sure, but by more than you may imagine. But it could be a bit of a riot as I would be rather blunt.
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Post by rza008 on May 14, 2006 2:18:08 GMT
Well i've booked tickets to go and see it friday night, the day it's released ;D
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