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Post by middlepillar on Sept 7, 2006 7:50:20 GMT
There has been lots of comments on this Forum about Lord Northampton. Some people seem to think he is great news for the Craft. However, I have been to several meetings recently where some of his actions and sayings have been seriously questioned. I was at a Royal & Select meeting where at least 3 senior masons voiced a lot of concern as to which direction Lord Northampton is really taking. Well for all those who have an opinion I would be interested to hear it.
I for one would have to vote still awaiting developments.
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Post by munkholt on Sept 7, 2006 9:53:34 GMT
... voiced a lot of concern as to which direction Lord Northampton is really taking. Corncern, like they don't like where he's headed, or that they are uncertain about his actual direction?
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Post by taylorsman on Sept 7, 2006 10:44:08 GMT
Bro Chris, could you be a bit less enigmatic? What was it exactly that Lord Northampton said that gave such concern to some Freemasons? It is not possible to judge an issue without all of the facts and although from what I have read to date from Lord Northampton I think he is the man that UGLE Craft needs at this time and hope he soon succeeds to the Office of Grand Master I do not give him a blank cheque on my approval , I don't give that to ANYONE! Accordingly what did he say, assuming this is not to do with the Signs, Tokens and Words, that has caused such disturbance to some of the grey stripey trouser brigade? I do wish that people would say what they mean and not talk in riddles like some latter day Oracle or Sibyl.
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Post by a on Sept 7, 2006 10:50:19 GMT
Sadly I am also aware that some think that Lord Northampton is wrong.
Yet, from the little, and I do stress little, that I am aware of, he and the grand Master himself, are just trying to inject a back to basics - to find what has been lost - to enable Freemasons to be able to get a hole heap more out of Freemasonry.
It is natural for humans to resist change and try to stay in the comfort zones, I should know for I have done it often enough. Fortunatley Freemasonry provides tools to help people deal with such things, though I accept that many tools may be absent from some UGLE rituals.
Middlepillar some questions for thought:-
1.The people who are concerned - why are they concerned? 2.Is it an egotistic reason - such as I am a PPPPPPwatsoever, been doingthis all my life if something was wrong I would know about it? 3.Or a fear of the unknown - the first steps are scary? 4.Or the possible realisation that instead of leading the way, UGLE may actually be dragging behind in the evolving global Masonic picture, and this is something that they consider it perhaps better to pretend is not the case as opposed to facing up to and dealing with? 5.Or something else?
Middlepillar you must be aware that within UGLE there are those who are of the opinion that most Freemasons have missed the whole point of Freemasonry, and yet others have been bullied and made miserable in lodge by behaviour that is tolerated. Some have walked with their feet because of what UGLE has become. I know that this is also a view held in other parts of the Masonic world. If it is true then it needs sorting. If it isn't then the best way to prove this is simply for UGLE members to act in accordance with UGLEs tenets. Remember the tenets start "Every True Freemason..."
Fortunately this is easily tested and visible through their actions.
Remember Freemasons strive for Truth. Hence by definition if Freemasons do not want people, especially their leaders, striving for Truth then questions need to be asked.
At the end of the day if UGLE is not strong enough to cope with its leader asking questions, and encourageing thought, trying to make things better, then what does that say?
Though as I noted above I do obviously have only limited information to base my above opinions on.
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Post by a on Sept 7, 2006 11:34:17 GMT
Forgot to mention, the fact that senior people are "seriously questioning" Lord Northampton does illustrate that he is succeeding. People are thinking. And from thinking comes change and positive evolution. All a part of the way things work.
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giovanni
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Post by giovanni on Sept 7, 2006 16:43:32 GMT
I voted "yes". I think he is good for English Freemasonry and, in any case, I see no other choice.
In desperate situations, the most difficult choices are the surest ones. Tacitus
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Post by middlepillar on Sept 7, 2006 22:56:59 GMT
Bro Chris, could you be a bit less enigmatic? What was it exactly that Lord Northampton said that gave such concern to some Freemasons? . Steve The Poll question is Do you think Lord Northampton is good for Freemasonry? I have had several discussions with Freemasons some old some young that have expressed concerns over his ideas and actions, I did not want to start an in depth look at his Policies (we can if you like elsewhere) I want to get an idea if UGLE Freemasons who Post on this site think he is good for the Craft or not, I have stated I am still awaiting developments, this is because some of the things he has done I am not sure about (personally I am a little worried that financial matters are clouding the waters, and you can interpret that any way you wish!). Others I was hoping may have a greater knowledge or experience of his work than me and I was hoping to find out what they thought. Thomas Concern about his direction, and where he is heading. Stewart, I was sitting with friends/brothers who expressed concerns, this is no big deal and doesnt need the analysis that you are asking, I did not get around to asking in depth questions I was surprised that a few brethren expressed concerns like 'I am not sure about him', is he going to be good for the craft? As much as I agree with a lot of what you write Stewart, I am sorry to say that this was only a Poll to see if the members of this Forum like the way Lord Northampton is doing things, If I say that out of about 100 Freemaosns that I talk with regularly I think only 3 or 4 have expressed any negative words about Northampton you may see where I am?
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staffs
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Staffs
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Post by staffs on Sept 8, 2006 6:19:09 GMT
I admit that i am only a mason of very few years but think LN is a breath of fresh air and instills a sense of motivation and enthusiasm by his words and actions. He recently attended a Provincial meeting down my way and i am told by several that met him that he is quite approachable and a "normal bloke".
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giovanni
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Post by giovanni on Sept 8, 2006 10:28:35 GMT
Chris,
who could be a serious alternative?
Lord N. spoke out very clearly, at least. The situation is bad. Going on the routine will lead UGLE to dissolution. The main problem, at this stage, is not the leader, but the program to be implemented.
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Post by taylorsman on Sept 8, 2006 11:23:32 GMT
I can agree with Gio. To my mind the very LAST thing we want is another figurehead "Coburg Prince" to replace the one who has been GM for almost 40 years now. Lord Northampton is the ideal candidate but alas we ordinary Masons will have no say in who is to be the next GM It depends I feel on how one considers Freemasonry? If all that is wanted is a combination of amateur dramatics enacting "Mystery Plays" and a Charitable Social Club then "steady as you go" , appoint another Royal Figurehead and continue with only superficial changes. If one the other hand one seeks for something deeper in The Craft then I feel that Lord Northampton is sounding a wake-up call to the Brethren and that he has to use the modern Management jargon, "Vision" and would give clear Leadership .
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Post by corab on Sept 8, 2006 11:39:09 GMT
You're obviously closer to the fire than I am, Chris, but from where I'm standing I would say the man's got his head screwed on proper and has a clear idea as to whither to direct his (and UGLE's) course.
I guess it depends on the individual's perception whether that course is the right one to sail!
S&F,
Cora
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Post by rbartlett on Sept 9, 2006 16:28:13 GMT
I have spoken to an active officer and their is a view that LN is a blind alley which many have no intention of seeing the Craft disappear
I suspect there will be some discrete and possibly not so discrete closing of the ranks so he is prevented from reaching the top slot -a la Brown with labour
S&F
Richard
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Post by a on Sept 9, 2006 17:18:04 GMT
Richard
Sadly this is the most likely decision, as it plays to comfort zones. The saddest bit is that this effectively removes hope of a rejuvenation of the inner side of Freemasonry, within the UGLE system at least. History could write such a decision as being the final nail in the coffin of UGLE and amity Freemasonry.
The world is awakening spiritually, and if UGLE chooses not to see what is within its very system, the only real losers are its members, itself, and sadly those who find their way to its doors looking for the inner side of Freemasonry not being aware that alternatives do exist.
I do not underestimate the resistance to LN, but here is a challenge for your active officer. Put me in front of a full Grand Lodge room of the doubters of LN, and I will show very clearly what they are missing. Only a few may get it there and then, but as the weeks and months pass, they will talk, their friends will listen, and the number of doubters will fall. It would not be that long before the inner side was refound and more actively supported their Pro GM and see that he is gently guiding them to safety from the current darkness. I will rile many though. What has UGLE got to loose? At worst a room full of members have had a good laugh at my expense that they could dine on for years. At best they could perhaps find more power (oh I dislike that word) that they could ever currently imagine.
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Post by mrmason on Sept 9, 2006 20:22:35 GMT
I am aware that this is an English question/poll, and I don't want to detract from the subject but I am still amazed at the number of UGLE brethren who constantly go on about the way things are/or should be done in UGLE. That's no slate on your question Chris but more directed on the answers.
Now I'm not sure how the UGLE actualy run their show but up here we hear very little from our GL via letters etc, unless they affect the most nessecary of things. For example from us closing in April this year until Sept I have had only 2 communications from GLoS. One being the Annual Proceedings and the other intimating the Annual Installation in November. Perhaps it should be another topic but any UGLE members that I come into contact with, (and there are several as we are close to the border), have no problem with UGLE. Is this a North, South problem rather than England as a whole.
In our GL it is Grand Committee who makes the decisions, and very rarely do you get our GM going a round making speeches on what is wrong and what needs to be done with regards Freemasonry in Scotland. Freemasonry in Scotland belongs to the lodges, and perhaps our so called independance for centuries has helped. However we do have a system that if we don't like our GM then at the very worst he is only in for 5 years then out.
I personaly believe that there are members who slate of our Grand officers, Gl, etc, but have no idea of what really goes on. I have experienced it in my own lodge. When brethren wear their mother lodge aprons and visit, they are great blokes, but when they put on the thistle green of PGL or GL they are seen by some to grow horns and talk B******s. This still amazes me after all these years. Particularly when the same ones who slag them off are not willing to go forward to PGL and try and make changes, which we can do.
I think my visit to London this month will be a very interesting one with numerous questions for Bro MP, and Bro Julian, when we meet up.
Chris, I will be in the Pillars from 3pm as well, as I've got lots to ask, and lots to listen to ;D
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Post by middlepillar on Sept 9, 2006 20:29:15 GMT
I do not underestimate the resistance to LN, but here is a challenge for your active officer. Put me in front of a full Grand Lodge room of the doubters of LN, and I will show very clearly what they are missing. Only a few may get it there and then, but as the weeks and months pass, they will talk, their friends will listen, and the number of doubters will fall. It would not be that long before the inner side was refound and more actively supported their Pro GM and see that he is gently guiding them to safety from the current darkness. I will rile many though. What has UGLE got to loose? At worst a room full of members have had a good laugh at my expense that they could dine on for years. At best they could perhaps find more power (oh I dislike that word) that they could ever currently imagine. Stewart Here is the real challenge, You put yourself in front of those 'doubters'. You know there are several people who have offered to propose and second you into Freemasonry, you have it in your power to do just what you are asking Richard to do. The only thing is you know it is almost impossible for Richard to arrange this, whereas from the inside you could quite easily speak out and to many Freemasons, it would of course take time but it is the only way your challenge to Richard could ever really be fulfilled and I think you probably know it. Richard Thanks for at least confirming that I am not going mad and that you are aware of some ill-ease with Lord Northampton
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Post by middlepillar on Sept 9, 2006 20:41:04 GMT
I am aware that this is an English question/poll, and I don't want to detract from the subject but I am still amazed at the number of UGLE brethren who constantly go on about the way things are/or should be done in UGLE. That's no slate on your question Chris but more directed on the answers. D Bob I am pleased to confirm to you that I would say that I am about 95% happy with everything about the Freemasonry I practice (UGLE) If I was a member of a Golf Club or Rotary and I was only unhappy with about 5% of it I would be content, and the same applies to My Masonic membership, I am happy! In fact one of the few things I do not agree with is The blind homage to Royalty, but as I am not a royalist you can probably understand why! The poll question is a genuine attempt to find out what the Forum members think of LN that is all! And it stems as I said from the fact that I have heard members express concern! Unfortunately, some people will try to turn any question in to either an attack (which it certainly isnt! I like LN!) or an excuse to point out the imminent collapse of Freemasonry as we know and love it! (which isnt going to happen!) Freemasonry is and should be many things to many people, one thing it is not is on the point of self destruction, no matter how loud it is being shouted.
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Post by a on Sept 9, 2006 21:00:28 GMT
I think that you are wrong here MP.
I want to see Freemasonry turn the corner and flourish in our world once again. I seem to be being quite effective in helping achieve this from outside UGLE, in my own little ways: whether it be helping where I can those who have been bullied/treated badly in lodge, corresponding with/meeting Grand officers from around the world (which I guess would need to stop if I were to join - protocol and all that), or generally encouraging thought on forums. I have even been known to help one or two take a Masonic step or two here and there. Remember that my focus on UGLE is simply that just now I can help it strengthen and turn the corner by encouraging thought at this time of critical management changeover decisions. However as you also know I have just about given up on UGLE, and all that I can do is hope that the inner courage can be found to make things better. By the time I worked through the UGLE system it will simply be too late, indeed I feel that it is just about too late already. If it weren't for the GS being dismissed I would most likely not have bothered to keep the thought encouragement going (remember I stopped writing to UGLE last year and backed of the forum as well), but UGLEs future is important, and when I look back on my life I would like to say that I did what I could.
Many worldwide read this forum, and Richard does not actually need to do anything, but informing his active officer contact would be nice. Don't be too surprised if I really do end up speaking in GL by the way. I am not holding my breath but don't be surprised.
UGLE may be one of the lesser responsive/helpful GLs to me, but they have been known to email me and I even got a phone call once from the Grand Secs assistant which was somewhat interesting. So I guess that they do listen.
Added: Once the New GS is announced/or the end of this year whichever comes first, I expect that my encouraging thought will cease, for there will be little that I can do help by then. If a new GS is appointed he will have his agenda, and by Christmas I really think that the moment for UGLE to get things moving will have been lost.
Leaving you to it will free up my time for other aspects of my life which is why I had backed off late last year.
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Post by a on Sept 10, 2006 15:21:47 GMT
If anyone doubts that LN is correct when he says something is wrong, have a look around the Masonic forums, there is at least one post today which sums up nicely what is wrong written by an UGLE Freemason. I am not going to say where it is, but it is pretty clear.
I have met countless people who have said that things are wrong, but no one wants to deal with it, so the problem become entrenched, accepted, and self reinforced. And when it becomes accepted as being the norm it becomes hidden.
Whether it is this poster summing it up in his own way, or whether it was George2897(?) I think who posted on forums sometime back about how lodges can be split due to politics, or those like Andrew, or the several brave souls who posted the three threads on bullying on tfm some years ago now (one was deleted at the request of the thread initiator), those who have left UGLE over the years for they have failed to seek what they find within the UGLE system or simply grown tired. Some say that these events are few and far between, others say that they are everyday occurrences. What is for sure is that they should not happen in Masonic environments. But if you treat the ritual as mummery then what do you expect? Lord Northampton from what I can tell simply wants to make things better - better for every single Freemason. But to make things better you have to do masonic work. And that should not be that difficult for Freemasons to do - should it?
It takes shovelfuls of courage to stand up and ask for things to be better. The difficulty though is that once you recognise that there is a problem you are obliged to do something about it. And even if that means making things better for yourself and everyone else, it is still easier to stay in the realms of your comfort zone.
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Post by gasturb on Jun 12, 2008 0:02:01 GMT
who is he?
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Post by lauderdale on Jun 12, 2008 0:12:30 GMT
The pro-Grand Master of UGLE.
When UGLE has a Royal as its Grand Master (as at present the Duke of Kent who is a cousin of the Queen), a pro-Grand Master is appointed to head up the Organisation on a day-to day basis, the Royal ( in most cases), being a figurehead given his other duties etc.
Lord Northampton, aka The Marquis of Northampton, name Spencer Compton is I understand a very nice chap and has some go-ahead ideas for UGLE. I have not met him but Bro Cora Burke has.
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