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Post by palmereldritch on Sept 19, 2007 1:56:23 GMT
I've read that it's often King James, but I've also read that sometimes it's a blank book, or Principia Mathematica. Are there other examples?
I was just curious how many different ones there are (besides the obvious ones like Q'uran, Vedic scripture, etc.).
I have to wonder if there are some guys who picked some really silly ones like the Tao of Pooh or something...
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Post by thedixiemason on Sept 19, 2007 2:07:23 GMT
A blank book? What is that supposed to represent? Lawlessness? Math books? Pooh books? Are you serious? How degrading to the Craft! Maybe in forms of masonry where they allow atheists, but not in my lodge.
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Post by gaslight on Sept 19, 2007 2:13:34 GMT
I have to wonder if there are some guys who picked some really silly ones like the Tao of Pooh or something... Thanks for starting this thread. It's a topic of great interest to me. In mainstream lodges the VSL has to be something that will make the obligation binding on the candidate (at least that's my interpretation) but I've seen some jurisdictions where GL has further required that it be a volume of 'revealed' or 'divine' wisdom, which seriously narrows things down. In what I presume is an attempt to be helpful, some GLs (or GL-sponsored bodies) have published lists of VSLs. Whoever put together the lists was trying to cover every possible base by first listing all major religions, then trying to assign a VSL. But that assumes that every major religion has a VSL on which followers feel comfortable swearing oaths — a most parochial assumption.
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Post by palmereldritch on Sept 19, 2007 2:38:02 GMT
A blank book? What is that supposed to represent? Lawlessness? Math books? Pooh books? Are you serious? How degrading to the Craft! Maybe in forms of masonry where they allow atheists, but not in my lodge. Oops, didn't check the source of the one about blank books - it was about Grand Orient of France. I don't think it's supposed to be about lawlessness, though? I think the Principia Mathematica was used to represent the laws of the universe. Maybe in honor of some of the Deists that were masons in the Age of Enlightenment, I dunno. I don't see how it's degrading to the Craft, but I'm not a Mason (at least not yet), so maybe I don't have the proper perspective. As for the Tao of Pooh, yeah, I could see that being a bit degrading in regular lodge, but I just wondered, if, in masonry's long history (and irregular offshoots) there weren't more than a few wiseacres that chose something like that. That title was just off the top of my head...that one was actually listed by a philosophy prof in an Eastern religions course as a halfway-decent intro to Tao, though I never read it, so if you're actually a Taoist, it doesn't seem like its really *that* degrading. Other examples come to mind like Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, Crowley's The Book of the Law, other New-Age-ish stuff, etc.
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Post by palmereldritch on Sept 19, 2007 3:02:48 GMT
I have to wonder if there are some guys who picked some really silly ones like the Tao of Pooh or something... Thanks for starting this thread. It's a topic of great interest to me. Thanks for replying. Have you a link to any such lists? I wonder how they parse which ones are divine and/or revealed and which aren't?
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Post by maat on Sept 19, 2007 3:23:12 GMT
I wonder how they parse which ones are divine and/or revealed and which aren't? Herein may lay a clue as to the sacred book with blank pages... To each his own revealed sacred law. Maat
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Post by maat on Sept 19, 2007 3:27:29 GMT
Pooh books? Are you serious? ;D ;D ;D
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Post by maat on Sept 19, 2007 3:47:20 GMT
Here is one list I found ... of course each Order would have their own list I suppose. The Pentateuch or the Old Testament of the Hebrews The New Testament of the Christians though some would include the Holy Bible the Koran of the 'Mohammedans or Islam the Zend Avesta of the Persians the Tripitaka of the Buddhists the Rig Veda and other Vedas of the Brahmins the Tao Te King of the Taoists of China the Bhagavad-Gita of the Hindus the Book of Mormon of the Latter Day Saints.
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Post by thedixiemason on Sept 19, 2007 5:24:05 GMT
Maat, I can agree that person can be bound by any of the laws of morality contained in any of those books.
However, IMO, man is basically incapable of setting his own standards of morality until he has first submitted to a basic "divine" moral code.
The VSL is our rule and guide for faith and practice. What rule do you follow in a book of blank pages?
To me, there is a very important lesson in the 3 great lights. The VSL, Square, and Compasses. The VSLis our divine standard. The Square is rigid. It is not flexible, and represents a rigid rule. The compasses represents the rigid rule that IS flexible.
Through the 3 degrees, the placement of the 3 great lights is arranged in a different manner. Ultimately, the Master Mason is above the rigid rule, and can use his judgment to circumscribe his own boundaries.... so long as it is based on the original moral law.
Jesus was constantly breaking the "law" according to the authority, but what he said was that he kept the spirit of the Law, and fulfilled the law. He knew the law, and only broke the law when he knew it was the right thing to do. (like healing on the Sabbath.)
One example of man trying to set his own set of moral standards, and the fallacy therein is this.
I have a friend who is a staunch liberal Democrat. He is an atheist. He supports gay rights. He is opposed to capital punishment. His only law is what he thinks will benefit the "greater good." To him, there is no God, and no basis for authority but his own "feelings."
However, examine the error of his thought process.
He believes that a woman has the "right to choose" an abortion if it will be an inconvenience in her life. In his mind, it is OK to kill a person as long as that person is completely innocent, and poses a threat to the happiness of its mother, in spite of the fact that it was the mother who created that life...
On the other hand, if a man is found guilty of raping, and torturing, and killing a child, it is wrong to execute that man for his crime...
"Pro-choice, Anti- Capital punishment" is the easiest argument to demonstrate that people are incapable of establishing their own moral code upon "feeling."
There has to be a divine law that must first be understood and respected, then, and only then can the Compasses be utilized by our own judgment. Flexible to a point, but rigid, and based on divine law.
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Post by thedixiemason on Sept 19, 2007 5:42:35 GMT
This same person who is for gay rights, thinks it is great that a Republican Senator was just caught in attempt to have gay sex in an airport bathroom, and was forced to resign from the Senate.
Now, I don't get this... It was between 2 adults. It was non-violent. We force all businesses to extend equal rights to both hetero and homo-sexuals...but since he was a closet homo, we can crucify him.
Even the Democrats that fight so hard for gay rights jump up in glee that a Republican was caught trying to have gay relations...and demand his resignation...What???
How is it OK to be gay and have concentual gay sex so long as you waive it in everyone's face, but it is a crime if you do not?
It is ridiculous!
I really threw him for a loop the other day... First, I tackled him on the basis of the issue and proved my point. Then I told him I thought homosexuality was a mental disorder... He didn't know what to think...except that he didn't like me.
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Post by thedixiemason on Sept 19, 2007 5:53:12 GMT
It just blows my mind that the same person will tell me it is OK to kill an innocent unborn child if it is a mere inconvenience to its mother, but it is immoral to kill a known rapist and murderer!
I think his morals must have been based on a book of blank pages.
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jmd
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Post by jmd on Sept 19, 2007 5:54:55 GMT
Unfortunately (and I say this despite the fact that it is a friend of mine who compiled the list that has been used by various Australian GLs when faced with 'questionable' VSLs), the very idea of questioning whether or not a volume is to be considered VSL has crept in. Personally, my preference is for the manner in which some European Lodges have addressed the issue: not book, but a Rule with Square and Compasses: The Book with Blank pages seems to me to still suggest the binding to another's words rather than the possibility of looking at the situation at hand for its ethical or moral dimensions.
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Post by thedixiemason on Sept 19, 2007 5:59:19 GMT
Unfortunately (and I say this despite the fact that it is a friend of mine who compiled the list that has been used by various Australian GLs when faced with 'questionable' VSLs), the very idea of questioning whether or not a volume is to be considered VSL has crept in. Personally, my preference is for the manner in which some European Lodges have addressed the issue: not book, but a Rule with Square and Compasses: The Book with Blank pages seems to me to still suggest the binding to another's words rather than the possibility of looking at the situation at hand for its ethical or moral dimensions. JMD, What "rule" do you find on a blank page?
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jmd
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Post by jmd on Sept 19, 2007 6:05:48 GMT
Hence why I personally prefer the symbolic use of a ruler, rather than any book. I tend to think the usage of a blank book to have been a worthy temporary attempt at resolving a situation that needed to be addressed, but falling short.
A Book of Blank Pages does of course contain much of symbolic intent (even if not my preferred option) - after all, one may thereby symbolically 'insert' therein whichever 'sacred' text one wishes, without the same imposed on any other brother within the Lodge. It has many merits!
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Post by thedixiemason on Sept 19, 2007 6:07:41 GMT
I'm sorry. This might seem abrasive. But that is just "STUPID!" Who cares if a person's "word" is binding if they make up their morals as they go along? Who cares about a person's "Word" if they hurt people? Do you actually think that? Do you really believe that anything is OK as long as a person keeps their "word?" That is just ignorant. Sorry.
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jmd
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Post by jmd on Sept 19, 2007 6:08:56 GMT
Let me give another example - some Lodges have up eight VSLs open during a meeting. Why not instead have a single symbolic VSL, with a candidate in any case using his or her specific one should they have such.
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Post by thedixiemason on Sept 19, 2007 6:11:07 GMT
In my lodge we only have one.
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jmd
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Post by jmd on Sept 19, 2007 6:12:21 GMT
Bro thedixiemason, I actually don't follow what you are saying here... Situations have ethical dimensions. It is not a matter of 'making up' things as one goes along, nor of 'keeping their word' no matter what - I don't actually see how you read that in what I wrote above. I'm sorry. This might seem abrasive. But that is just "STUPID!" Who cares if a person's "word" is binding if they make up their morals as they go along? Who cares about a person's "Word" if they hurt people? Do you actually think that? Do you really believe that anything is OK as long as a person keeps their "word?" That is just ignorant. Sorry.
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Post by thedixiemason on Sept 19, 2007 6:17:53 GMT
You seem to think that an appropriate substitute for our rule and guide in faith and practice is a book of blank pages.
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Post by thedixiemason on Sept 19, 2007 6:18:38 GMT
That means, you respect NO LAW!
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