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Post by thedixiemason on Sept 19, 2007 6:19:27 GMT
You can just make it up as you go along...?
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Post by lauderdale on Sept 19, 2007 6:19:44 GMT
Although I am a Christian (of the "liberal" Episcopal variety) and Swore my own Obligation on the KJV Bible, I can see a lot of merit in the blank book approach. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
BTW for the record I am in favour of Free Abortion on demand, at least in the first trimester as I do not consider a foetus until capable of independent existence with minimal artificial support as a separate "Life" and would put the mother's Life first were there any conflict. I understand that some parts of the Jewish faith hold a similar position and they are a Religion with a great many "Laws". I also however support Capital Punishment for wilful and deliberate murder and acts of terrorism. To complete the set I favour Voluntary Euthanasia, Stem Cell Research and Genetic Engineering. Oh and a person's sexuality is their own affair as long as they do not involve children in it and perform any consensual act in privacy. I Hope that clarifies matters for Bro Dixiemason and if I had a vote in the USA I would support the Democrats and hope Hilary Clinton wins in Nov 2008.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Now back on Topic, in my own Lodge we have the KJV Bible, Koran and Gita on our Altar and would have any other that a Candidate held to be Sacred to them, e,g, the Torah, the Granth etc. Incidentally in the Royal Ark Mariner Degree a Porphyry Stone is used instead of a VSL as it is held that no written VSL existed at the time of Noah, on who's story that Degree is based.
If someone holds a Book or any other Symbol to be Scared, e.g. a Cross then that is valid in my eyes. Let's face, in Courts of Law across the Democratic World day and daily people swear to tell the Truth whilst holding a Bible then lie through their back teeth.
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jmd
Member
fourhares.com
Posts: 1,081
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Post by jmd on Sept 19, 2007 6:24:00 GMT
To the Buddhist, it is possibly more appropriate, no? And to the Jainaist? and to the neo-pagan?
Why assume that a Bible is more reasonable in such a context? and similarly, why 'force' writings from other faiths that are not considered in the manner that Judeo-Christians view their sacred text in an equivalent manner?
I personally DO think that it is very symbolically appropriate (and Masonically more so) to have a book of blank pages rather than the Bible - and even more than a book of blank pages, a simple and evocative ruler.
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Post by thedixiemason on Sept 19, 2007 6:25:41 GMT
Yes.. I agree whole heartedly with you Lauderdale... But look at it this way. Let's say we choose to use a book of blank pages as our divine law. Every man gets to decide on his own morals. One man decides that all flesh is immoral, and he sets off a nuclear reaction that destroys every man, woman, and child on earth... Do we then say...wow, he was a man of his word. He was a good Mason...
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Post by maat on Sept 19, 2007 6:38:30 GMT
One man decides that all flesh is immoral, and he sets off a nuclear reaction that destroys every man, woman, and child on earth... ...what if it was a flood instead of nuclear?
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Post by thedixiemason on Sept 19, 2007 6:43:10 GMT
Maat, that is a "Beaudreaux joke."
It's funny, but not in this context.
I know where you're going, but please bear with me.
What makes a Mason? What makes you a Mason? Hum?
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Post by thedixiemason on Sept 19, 2007 6:44:25 GMT
Any true Mason will say, "My obligation."
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Post by thedixiemason on Sept 19, 2007 6:46:45 GMT
What use is an obligation if it is not made on a VSL? What use is a VSL if it is blank? None.
You cannot have true Masonry without a basic code of morals...
Who cares if you keep your word if your word is "destruction?"
Blank pages will not do for a VSL...
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Post by lauderdale on Sept 19, 2007 6:46:54 GMT
"One man decides that all flesh is immoral, and he sets off a nuclear reaction that destroys every man, woman, and child on earth..."
That is a classic "Reductio ad absurdum" and not worth pursuing. However your own President Truman had a similar if tighter Moral Dilemma over Hiroshima and Nagasaki. i feel he made the correct decision.
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Post by maat on Sept 19, 2007 6:48:33 GMT
Jesus was constantly breaking the "law" according to the authority, but what he said was that he kept the spirit of the Law, and fulfilled the law. He knew the law, and only broke the law when he knew it was the right thing to do. (like healing on the Sabbath.) His Father's law was written in his heart not on a page. His Father is our Father also, so why not listen to the His law that is in our heart? I for one would not go up to the mountain top to sacrifice my only son, no matter who told me to do it.... because God said it is wrong to kill... !!! And my heart tells me that that is the law I should abide by. Maat
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Post by thedixiemason on Sept 19, 2007 6:50:01 GMT
OK. Did he make that decision off of blank pages? No!
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Post by thedixiemason on Sept 19, 2007 6:51:36 GMT
Jesus was constantly breaking the "law" according to the authority, but what he said was that he kept the spirit of the Law, and fulfilled the law. He knew the law, and only broke the law when he knew it was the right thing to do. (like healing on the Sabbath.) His Father's law was written in his heart not on a page. His Father is our Father also, so why not listen to the His law that is in our heart? I for one would not go up to the mountain top to sacrifice my only son, no matter who told me to do it.... because God said it is wrong to kill... !!! And my heart tells me that that is the law I should abide by. Maat OK. Period... Your heart says do not kill. Right?
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Post by thedixiemason on Sept 19, 2007 6:52:39 GMT
Maat, how many children do you have and what are their ages?
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Post by thedixiemason on Sept 19, 2007 7:00:10 GMT
A blank page will not do as a VSL. Sorry, but no one will ever change my mind about that.
If a blank page is acceptable, then you agree that there should be no law, no rule, no guide, and no obligation... Lawlessness is un-masonic. Sorry. That is what I know about Masonry.
Masons require laws. Period!
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Post by lauderdale on Sept 19, 2007 7:06:06 GMT
Right, let's look at this. The Bible? Which versions? Millions of Christians use translations of the Latin Vulgate and it contains the Books of the Apocrypha, not looked upon as "Holy Writ" by many Protestants, yet used by the largest Christian Denomination- the Roman Catholic Church. Then again which Translation, I personally love the majesty and language of the KJV, others like the more modern versions. Also there are books omitted from the Bible used these days, The Gospels of Peter and of Thomas for a start. It is ironic that the Bible will be found in many family homes yet is unread and used only to record events such as Births, Marriages and Deaths on the flyleaf.
Continuing onwards, a Jew would not accept the New Testament, and we have many Jewish Brethren, an Islamic has the Koran as their VSL, and there are Religions which do not have any VSL but are none the less as valid as any other faith. As for Atheists, European Freemasonry, from which my own Masonic Obedience is derived, admits Atheists and these people are not Immoral Libertines nor Stupid as some old Masonic Books would have them but in my experience have as strict a Moral Code to regulate their lives as any Churchgoer.
In the usual list of Questions leading from the First to the Second Degree the Candidate is asked "Where were you first prepared to be made a Freemason?" The answer of course being "In my Heart" Therefore it is in their Heart that they are Obligated and that is good enough for me. In the end only God knows the veracity of a Candidate's Obligation, we have to fall back on that most human of virtues ----TRUST! Without it the World is a very lonely place indeed.
Bro Dixie, you stick to your version of Freemasonry, I will stick to mine, yours is far too narrow for me I'm afraid. I live in an analog world with a wide spectrum of value systems and beliefs, I leave "Digital" , on-off, black-white, high-low, two choice system to the electronic assemblies I work with.
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Post by thedixiemason on Sept 19, 2007 7:14:08 GMT
We are not talking about the various versions of the OT, or NT. We are not talking about the Bible vs. the Qu'ran... We are talking about BLANK PAGES!!! No LAW! No RULE! Not a particular version... We are talking about wiping out the greatest light!!!
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Post by lauderdale on Sept 19, 2007 7:26:58 GMT
This is totally illogical and ridiculous. Even the Soviet Union and "Red" China had Laws and plenty of them, in their day. Some of the "political" and repressive, some of them common to all Regularly Organised Societies, e.g. on matters such as Murder, Rape, Theft etc. Yet the USSR and Mao's China were officially Atheist Societies.
So-called "Primitive" Societies have no VSL, much of their Lore and Customs are passed on my "Word of Mouth" a bit like those Masonic Bodies which impart their Rituals "Mouth to Ear", however these peoples have a strict moral code, different to but in some ways far stricter than we have.
To put it in a nutshell, I would far rather have the sincere and honest Obligation of a Candidate sworn on a Blank Book, piece of Stone or Wood etc, and in accordance with what they held to be scared in their Heart, than a pack of lies spoken over the finest leather bound and gold blocked Bible (or any other VSL) that humanity can produce and money can buy.
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Post by thedixiemason on Sept 19, 2007 7:34:32 GMT
Hello?
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Post by thedixiemason on Sept 19, 2007 7:36:00 GMT
Over 1000 years ago, our Brother Edwin was challenged to find one common thread between all the Crafts. He found 15 articles and 15 points to which every body could agree.
That was what brought us all together.
Now, the popular belief is that we should find our own way, outside the Craft, and still slap the badge of a Mason on our chest.
It degrades the badge.
To profess to be a Mason, and have no respect for a common rule is just retarded!
We should build on those rules, not abandon them...
To allow an atheist into Masonry is just "WRONG."
Masons look for the plan and the Grand design. How can you look for God's plan if there is no God?
It is just STUPID!
It makes no sense whatsoever, and I have no idea why someone who does not believe in God, or laws, or order, or love, would even want to be a Mason.
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Post by lauderdale on Sept 19, 2007 8:28:16 GMT
Edwin? It is a very moot point indeed if Freemasonry as we would understand it even existed in 1007. Bro Keith Walker is quite an authority on the Recorded History of The Craft and I wonder what he would have to say on the validity of "Edwin's" 15 Articles especially as present day GLs are not even agreed on what constitutes the far more recent "Landmarks" and some have no such list at all.
Now what was happening in 1007? It was 59 years before the Norman Conquest of England, 769 years before the start of the American War of Independence, the majority of the population of most countries could not read or write and superstition reigned supreme. The Earth was considered to be the centre of the Universe, the "Medicine" of the day worked on the theory of the Four Humours, the Earth was considered to be flat, etc.
Could there be confusion with the Grand Lodge of York said to have been summoned by the Anglo-Saxon King Athelstan in the 10th Century AD? Some claim this never actually happened although there is both an UGLE Order based on this "Legend" and an Independent Grand Lodge GLAE which claims its authority from that event.
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