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Post by lauderdale on Sept 20, 2007 10:59:37 GMT
Personally, I feel that all the "Holy Books" have some amount of Divine Inspiration, just as all Organised Religions contain some Light. However none of these Books have the sole rights to claim such Godly Guidance as ALL were written by Humanity and are informed by the Culture and Mores of the Society in which they were written. As an example many of the dietary and other prohibitions of the Jews in Leviticus and Deuteronomy are irrelevant, even comical to non Jews. As I have said before I will happily show an Islamic the way to the Mosque in my town, just as soon as I have eaten my pork pie and drank my glass of wine.
Unless they do not believe in a "Holy Book" I am only to happy that a Candidate has that Book they consider to be sacred to their beliefs, or else some other Totemic Object or as has been said a "Blank Book" which in their mind and heart contains those guiding Tenets and Principles they live by.
I was quite happy to be Sworn on the KJV of the Bible although I take much of it as being allegorical, as it is the "Holy" Book of my culture and religion. I would NOT expect an Islamic, Sikh or Hindu to take their Oath on it but on their own VSL.
In the end as far as I am concerned I would rather someone Swore on something they did believe than an insincere Oath on a Book which meant nothing to them.
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Post by corab on Sept 20, 2007 11:21:43 GMT
Just out of curiosity, when we circumambulate the candidates around the lodge in the different degrees, the SD is reciting three different scriptures, and the candidate should be paying attention to those scriptures. What do they say in an LDH lodge? Are those scriptures even pointed out? Depends on the ritual. Lauderdale has a brief explanation of the journey's origins and meaning at the end of each journey.
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Post by corab on Sept 20, 2007 11:39:55 GMT
Bro:. Dixie, Tell me one thing: what purpose have you in asking a question when you have already decided your answer is the only right answer? How do blank pages conform to the definition of Lore? They can't.. Since when does FREE-masonry conform? But as we are not Operative, but FREE and Accepted, or SPECULATIVE Masons ... get the picture? FREE-masonry, at its very deepest and most intimate, is about the personal journey each of us makes, and during which we find out who and what we really are. Unbound by dogma, but bound and willing to submit to the laws of the country, which are informed by the laws of religion, we step off on the left foot in full intent to see our whole nature conformed to that by which we live. We know not what awaits us -- in that respect we remain in a certain state of darkness, although now, like the Hermit, we carry a Light to show us the way. We know not what awaits us, but we record it, dutifully and truthfully, in the records of our mind. THAT is what the blank pages symbolise: our commitment to apply the teachings of the Royal Art to our lives, in every minute aspect; to be transformed by the Light that now guides us, and in time, to become such a Light unto others, that they, too, may find their way. It is the notebook in which we record our progress, our successes and our failures, THAT WE MAY LEARN. I took my Obligation on the Bible, because that is the Tome which contains the lessons of life I was brought up with. Had I had the option of a blank book, however, I would've taken it, without any hesitation whatsoever, and I would've considered myself no less bound to my word. S&F, Cora
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Post by thedixiemason on Sept 20, 2007 18:46:24 GMT
Cora, Please don't take my comments the wrong way. Freemasonry is different things to different people, and I accept that. If one wishes to stay within the Craft degrees, and simply view Masonry as a fraternity, or a method of finding one's self, then a blank book is fine.
However, if one wishes to see the work and plan of the Grand Architect, and wishes to advance beyond the Craft degrees, then he/she would have done themselves a major disservice by disregarding the "points" that were made in the Craft degrees.
In my experience, I have found Masonry to contain keys to prophecy that is written in the Bible. I do not know how anyone would be able to unlock those mysteries outside of the advanced degrees, nor do I know how they could do it without those scriptures being brought to their attention.
There is more to this IMHO, than just what you swear on.
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Post by brandt on Sept 20, 2007 18:49:56 GMT
Brother Dixie Mason, I am sure that you have met people who adhere, at least in some form or fashion, so some divine law and have committed horrible atrocities. I have also met atheists who are some of the most decent and trustworthy people around. The presence of a book will not make a bad man good, nor ensure the continued worthiness of a good man. I am sure in your lodge, as you pointed out, there is only one book on the altar (which book is that might I ask). People, regardless of religion or lack thereof, form their moral code based primarily on their primary socializers (parents) and the later effects/affects of society in their life. You may note that religion is not as strong an influence to all as it is to you.
Brandt
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Post by thedixiemason on Sept 20, 2007 19:08:02 GMT
"Masonry, like all the Religions, all the Mysteries, Hermeticism, and Alchemy, conceals its secrets from all except the Adepts and Sages, or the Elect, and uses false explanations and misinterpretations of its symbols to mislead those who deserve only to be mislead; to conceal the Truth, which it calls light, and draw them away from it. Truth is not for those who are unworthy or unable to receive it, or who would pervert it. So God Himslf incapacitates many men, by color-blindness, to distinguish colors, and leads the masses away from the highest truth, giving them the power to attain only so much of it as it is profitable to them to know." [Morals and Dogma, p. 104-5, 3rd Degree]
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Post by thedixiemason on Sept 20, 2007 19:17:23 GMT
"So Masonry jealously conceals its secrets and intentionally leads conceited interpreters astray. There is no sight under the sun more pitiful and ludicrous at once than the spectacle of the Prestons and Webbs, not to mention the later incarnations of Dullness and Commonplace, undertaking to 'explain' the old symbols of Masonry, and adding to and 'improving' them, or inventing new ones." [Ibid.]
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Post by brandt on Sept 20, 2007 19:22:24 GMT
If I am correct, and I think that I am your state uses a version of Preston-Webb. If indeed the definition of "a peculiar system of morality, veiled in allegory and illustrated by symbols" is correct then the allegories that you seem to be holding so strongly to are a veil that conceals. I would recommend that you not worry so much about the veil.
Brandt
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Post by thedixiemason on Sept 20, 2007 19:24:26 GMT
I'm not worried.
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Post by brandt on Sept 20, 2007 19:25:37 GMT
me thinks that you protest too much
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Post by thedixiemason on Sept 20, 2007 19:27:51 GMT
me thinks that you protest too much Maybe so.
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Post by corab on Sept 20, 2007 19:43:56 GMT
Bro:. Dixie, In my experience, I have found Masonry to contain keys to prophecy that is written in the Bible. I do not know how anyone would be able to unlock those mysteries outside of the advanced degrees, nor do I know how they could do it without those scriptures being brought to their attention. I can see that, but from where I'm standing it is a separate issue to the one we are discussing. However, the above may have just given me an insight in where you're coming from. You're coming at this from the angle of the Great Emblematical Lights, aren't you? Now don't say "Well duh" -- it is actually quite significant. I just had the bright idea of comparing my ritual (Lauderdale) with my copies of Emulation and Taylor's on this point. Both Emulation and Taylor's have: "The Sacred Writings are to govern our faith..." Lauderdale has "The Sacred Lore is to illumine our minds..." Without going back on the definition of Lore, the key difference, as I see it, is in the emphasis. Emulation and Taylor's appear to emphasise faith, whereas Lauderdale's emphasis seems almost intellectual -- although in a spiritual context. If your ritual has similar explicit references to faith, I can understand why you cannot accept the notion of blank pages as VSL. One thing that needs to be understood about my Obedience is that the absence of dogma is regarded as a landmark, right alongside the total freedom of conscience. That doesn't mean "do what thou wilt", to coin a phrase; it means that each one of us is free to express his/her spirituality in whatever way s/he chooses, be that through the medium of religion, humanism or something else. It also means that we must make every reasonable effort to accommodate our candidates' wishes in respect of the VSL. Most lodges in the British Federation have a Bible, and two other sacred books. In my lodge it is the Qu'ran and the Bhagavad Gita; others may have different books. In France, laïcité is a BIG thing. That inevitably has an impact on the way our French Brn:. practice and experience their craft. Religion is considered to be something deeply personal, which should not interfere with one's public life. Like it or loathe it, that's the way things are in France, and I personally am a great proponent of their total separation of church and state, but that's probably a can I should leave unopened for now. My Obedience -- and through it, all other co-masonic orders and indeed feminine orders -- has its roots in France. It does have an influence on what we do and how we experience the craft, and I have to say I like it that way -- vive la différence; vive la liberté, égalité, fraternité! ;D Our Constitution states it quite clearly: we work to TGAOTU and/or the perfection of humanity. In the British Federation that is implemented in such a manner that we assert the existence of a creative principle known as TGAOTU -- the supreme will in evolution. I have met and worked with atheists and agnostics; I have participated in the much more secular continental ritual and although I have to admit I much prefer the elaborate "smells & bells" approach of Lauderdale, I have never felt something was out of order, not right, just because I was in the presence of people who may have taken their Obligation on a blank book on top of the Constitution, or those who profess to have no faith. Frankly, when I am in the presence of Brn:., the thought simply doesn't occur to me. I don't stop to think about their beliefs, about whether or not they held a Bible in their hands when they took their Obligation -- I just see the men and women I call my Brothers (or, as the case may be, in France: Sisters ;D) Taking an Obligation on a blank book atop the Constitution is every bit as binding to me as taking it on the Bible, but I can see how the application of that would stump you in terms of "our faith" being "governed" by such a book of blank pages -- or even how it could "illumine our mind". Going by Lauderdale's "illumine our mind", and coming at it from the spirit of co-masonry, a blank book seems eminently suitable to "illumine" the mind. The Light reflects off its pages, straight into the candidate's mind and draws to his/her attention that this is the first moment in a new life; out of the darkness, reborn to the Light, and that everything he does from now on must and will be in keeping with that Inner Light. And that is an Inner Light which transcends religions -- it is the Light of the Inner Ruler Immortal; the divine spark within. That same inner Light, that flame of divinity, will reflect straight back at the candidate from those blank pages -- as if s/he looked in a mirror and recognised at last his/her true nature. In that we are in agreement!
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Post by thedixiemason on Sept 20, 2007 21:03:52 GMT
Yes, I can see where you are coming from. I too, am a firm believer in the separation of church and state. And additionally, a person's religion should not be an issue in the Craft degrees.
I get all that, and I whole heartedly agree on those points.
And as you said, my perspective is coming from the "Great Lights" standpoint, and from the standpoint of degrees which are beyond the Craft degrees and which rely on "points" that were received in the Craft degrees.
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Post by corab on Sept 20, 2007 21:09:41 GMT
And as you said, my perspective is coming from the "Great Lights" standpoint, and from the standpoint of degrees which are beyond the Craft degrees and which rely on "points" that were received in the Craft degrees. Ah, good to see I got it at last. Now, bearing in mind that I am due to be raised this 13th October (fantastic date!) and do not wish to be exposed to knowledge superior to my degree, are you able to elaborate on those points received in the Craft degrees at all? Cheers, S&F, Cora
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Post by thedixiemason on Sept 20, 2007 22:39:06 GMT
And as you said, my perspective is coming from the "Great Lights" standpoint, and from the standpoint of degrees which are beyond the Craft degrees and which rely on "points" that were received in the Craft degrees. Ah, good to see I got it at last. Now, bearing in mind that I am due to be raised this 13th October (fantastic date!) and do not wish to be exposed to knowledge superior to my degree, are you able to elaborate on those points received in the Craft degrees at all? Cheers, S&F, Cora Cora, that's a great day to be raised! My son is going to be initiated into DeMolay that day too! I can sy that if they use a KJV Bible, and they tell you that you are about to receive a "Material Point" look at what is right in front of your face, and try to remember that if you go beyond the 3rd degree.
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Post by thedixiemason on Sept 20, 2007 22:46:23 GMT
Also, pay attention to where you are when you are raised, and what you are raised "by." Or in some rituals "how."
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Post by lauderdale on Sept 20, 2007 22:50:16 GMT
There will be at least one Knight Templar present when Cora is Raised, possibly more, albeit we will be in Craft Regalia of course though wearing our Rose Croix Collarettes.
A day to Remember indeed.
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jmd
Member
fourhares.com
Posts: 1,081
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Post by jmd on Sept 21, 2007 0:58:52 GMT
...but again, recall that even in the 18th and 30th in many constitutions, there is no requirement of being Christian.
In contradistinction to KTs, for which I am not aware of any that do not require a Christian adherence.
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Post by thedixiemason on Sept 21, 2007 5:16:45 GMT
I was told the LDH in the UK does require you to be a Christian for the 18th and above by Steve Foley.
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Post by lauderdale on Sept 21, 2007 9:51:49 GMT
To clarify this matter. On another Forum, NOS, Dixiemason posted the following:-
"I have a copy of the Franken Manuscript written in 1770. There, the 18th degree was said to have been greatly misunderstood because there have been so many variations. It also says, "This degree keeps the original form of Scotch Masonry, until the Last Temple of Jesus Christ."
It also says that it was the same as Herodim Masonry, and is also the same as Rose Crohs. Furthermore, it says that it used to also be known as Knight Masons, and was the 7th degree of a Perfect Mason. Only Christians were permitted beyond the 6th degree, and the 7th was the last, and Perfect degree.
Now it is the 18th degree, and Christianity is not required here in the AASR, SJ.
Is it required elsewhere?
To which I replied "Yes it is" meaning Rose Croix (A&ASR) as practised in the UK . I did not specify which Jurisdiction in the UK.
As regards "Being a Christian" to my knowledge Rose Croix over here requires that an applicant makes a Declaration of Support for the Christian Trinitarian Faith. There is no check on them attending any Church etc. I suppose in Theory a Jew or an Islamic could make such a Statement to obtain Perfection into the 18th Degree of the A&ASR but in real life I really doubt that this would occur, unless someone can prove to the contrary?
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I would reiterate that any posting made by me on this or any other such Forum is from my own understanding and experience and is in no way, implied or explicit, to be taken as a Statement on behalf of my Masonic Obedience.
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