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Post by Stash on Nov 15, 2004 6:24:55 GMT
So far, I've come across the following examples in history where masons were outright persecuted:
1. WWII when hitler persectuted masons in the german empire, look up "forget-me-not" for more info on this 2. 1738, anti-masonic papal bull by Pope Clement XII 3. above bull renewed in 1751 by Pope Benedeict XIV 4. 1865, "secret consistory of the vatican" by Pope Pius IX, another anti-masonic declaration by Roman church
Can anyone list any other examples of this??
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Post by Doric on Nov 15, 2004 7:38:58 GMT
Actually, it wasn't so much Hitler (and I hesitate to defend him) but more Goebells & Goering who led him to it. Effect was much the same, however!
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Post by Jumile on Nov 15, 2004 11:22:37 GMT
I think if you look at most of the dictators, fascists and other totalitarian regimes since the 18th century, I think you'll find persecution of Freemasonry as a common theme. It's not just Europe, either: Africa and Asia seem to have done the same.
Usually these have gone hand in hand with persecution of Jews, gays and other groups deemed to be "undesirable" or "subversive".
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Post by taylorsman on Nov 15, 2004 21:58:20 GMT
Franco in Spain, also look what Pope Clement and Philip the Fair did to the Templars!
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Post by Stash on Nov 16, 2004 3:51:15 GMT
Crap, I'd have to say the Friday the 13th earning mass-roundup of the templars would probably be THE main example of this, I can't believe I didn't think of it when I was typing my post.
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Post by Lewis on Nov 16, 2004 7:21:03 GMT
Is this why Friday 13th is deemed to be unlucky ??
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Post by Stash on Nov 16, 2004 7:24:57 GMT
Lewis...I've read that in 3 separate books so far, and I haven't had anybody tell me otherwise, so I'm gonna go on and say yes, that Is why the friday 13th superstition exists
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Post by taylorsman on Nov 16, 2004 7:30:31 GMT
On was on a Friday 13th that the arrest of the Templars began.
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Post by adder on Nov 16, 2004 8:40:30 GMT
Is this why Friday 13th is deemed to be unlucky ?? To give a couple of banal examples: 12 signs of the zodiac with the earth at the centre(astrological symbolism, not astronomical fact). 12 deciples with Christ at the centre. There is more to the significance of 13 than a mere historical date.
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Post by Trinityman on Nov 16, 2004 9:23:31 GMT
So far, I've come across the following examples in history where masons were outright persecuted: 1. WWII when hitler persectuted masons in the german empire, look up "forget-me-not" for more info on this 2. 1738, anti-masonic papal bull by Pope Clement XII 3. above bull renewed in 1751 by Pope Benedeict XIV 4. 1865, "secret consistory of the vatican" by Pope Pius IX, another anti-masonic declaration by Roman church Can anyone list any other examples of this?? How about right now - 21st century Britain? The way the government is going about seeking registration of freemasons is a downright disgrace. The fraternity is now held in such low regard in some quarters that I believe membership to actually be a big fat negative in the commercial world rather than the back-scratching positive it is perceived to be. We are persecuted and made a mockery of by the Media purely for the sake of lining their own pockets. And, according to the new age conspiracy theorists, we are merely a hoodwinked step on the ladder to the NWO/Illuminati global masterplan - so the silly masons are pawns too. gets my goat
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Post by adder on Nov 16, 2004 10:09:21 GMT
gets my goat So there is a goat involvement!!!! I knew it!!
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Post by kizzy on Nov 16, 2004 10:20:37 GMT
Gentlemen, can we leave the goat tethered to this one post please?
I agree with Trinityman that the witch-hunt against Freemasonry by the present Government is appalling and I am glad that at long last Grand Lodge is reacting by taking Legal Action against such measures under European Law where necessary instead of turning the other cheek.
If such disclosure and registration rules were applied to Religion or Sexual orientation all hell would be let loose by the same "liberal intellectuals" who traduce Freemasonry and I can even think of one who would be sure to "Ask Questions in The House" in such circumstances yet is a well known enemy of Freemasonry.
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Post by leonardo on Nov 16, 2004 10:30:27 GMT
The friday 13 connection is mentioned in great detail in Tallisman by Graham Hanc o c k (When I spell this properly it comes out thingy!)
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Post by ingo on Nov 16, 2004 18:57:38 GMT
Well, the NAZIS persecuted mainly irregular masonry. Why: Well the Nazis created a kind of religion and mythology themselves. For that reason the lodges with anti-nazi tradition or more esoteric background were persecuted.
It is right that the NAZIS forbid masonry in 1935. But until this time the so-called regular masonry tried to be established as pro-nazi organisation in the new Nazi state. Remember, the secretary of economy and president of the Reichsbank, Hjamlmar Schacht, was a Bro:!! He financed Hitlers military plans!!
Some grand lodges even tried to change the rituals from a more humanistic tradition into a anti-jewish and nationalist, "old-germanic" direction. They did a lot in this field. The regular masonry was forbidden not because they formed the opposition agianst the Nazis. But the totalitaristic point of view of the Nazi regime did not allow any kind of other organisation bejond the Nazis!
Only masons from irregular bodies were arrested and killed into CCs. Only the members of LDH France and GOdF were arrested in high numbers during WWII because many of them were part of the anti-nazi resistance.
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Post by Stash on Nov 16, 2004 19:09:20 GMT
Ingo, where did you get all that information?? I was always under the impression that regular masonry was just as persecuted....and replaced by the nazi Thule society. I dont' know alot about the subject though, i plan to learn more soon.
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sarge
Member
peace and harmony
Posts: 224
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Post by sarge on Nov 16, 2004 23:01:23 GMT
going off topic for a moment. We had a Jewish visitor to lodge last week who only gave the second part of the E.A.sign . He said he did this because the first part reminded him too much of the Nazi salute sarge
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Post by Doric on Nov 17, 2004 0:03:18 GMT
going off topic for a moment. We had a Jewish visitor to lodge last week who only gave the second part of the E.A.sign . He said he did this because the first part reminded him too much of the Nazi salute sarge What bloody degree were you in? We have a number of Jewish specific Lodges in our Province - none of them have any problems with the signs!
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Post by taylorsman on Nov 17, 2004 8:38:42 GMT
Depends how the EA Sign is given. In my Taylors and Sussex Lodges we do raise the right arm hand extended in such a manner before performing the rest of the sign, (which of course I will not describe here). This was originally a Roman Salute as in "Hail Caesar". That is the manner in which I always make that Sign. Now in some Emulation Lodges that does not seem to happen and the Sign is given in what I find a bit of a sloppy manner, but as my Handle will indicate and as is well now to those who know me from "another Forum " I don't like Emulation Working anyway!
Yes I can see how the action mentioned could be misconstrued by some people and as I always say, only do that you personally feel comfortable with.
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Post by waynecowley on Nov 17, 2004 10:03:16 GMT
I too have seen the sign given with a flourish that could make it reminiscent of the Nazi salute.
However, when it is given as instructed it should not really do so - but obviously we cannot describe the instructions on an open forum
Wayne
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ruffashlar
Member
Lodge Milncroft No. 1515 (GLoS), Govanhill Royal Arch Chapter 523 (S.G.R.A.C.S.)
Posts: 2,184
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Post by ruffashlar on Nov 21, 2004 22:08:50 GMT
Re: Friday 13th and the Templars: "I've read that in 3 separate books so far, and I haven't had anybody tell me otherwise"
But this is contrary to logic: until fairly recently, it was assumed by practically everyone that the Templars were indeed evil, involved in all kinds of demonic whatsits, and deserved all they got. So why would popular superstition regard the day of the arrest of the devil's minions as a bad thing?
More likelihood rests with the ill-luck of Good Friday, when Christ was betrayed by Judas Iscariot. The dozen Apostles are reckoned without Christ's betrayer, so thirteen is a company which includes him. The awkwardness of the number 13, which suggests the lunar year and hence the pagan world which that calendar supported, rounds the matter out nicely.
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