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Post by nomore3579 on Jan 29, 2008 1:59:48 GMT
Please note -- this is one of several threads which are primarily intended for those Masons who profess to be Christians, although I cannot prevent anyone from posting to this or any other thread. My goal is to appeal to "Christian" Masons first, for they claim to be members of the Body of Christ (the Church). My appeal to them is to ask that they sincerely examine the teachings of Freemasonry vs. the teachings of the Bible. In doing so, my hope is that they will re-evaluate their involvement in an organization that Scripture will demonstrate is incompatible with biblical Christianity. That said, in light of the question posed as the title of this thread, let's answer it from both a Masonic perspective and the biblical perspective. The Bible teaches that Jesus Christ, and Him alone, is the Creator of all things (Great Architect of the Universe): Colossians 1:15-19
15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. This passage clearly teaches the Deity and Supremacy of Christ; that Jesus is God; Creator or Architect of the Universe. The Bible also teaches that Jesus was God in human form (Matthew 1:18-24, John 1:1). Jesus is the second person of the trinity (Matthew 28:19, Mark 1:9-11). While on earth, He was fully human (Mark 4:38, Matthew 4:2) and fully divine (John 20:28, John 1:1-2, Acts 4:10-12). In other words, Jesus is THE Supreme Being. In contrast to this biblical view of God, Freemasonry requires belief in "a" Supreme Being, rather than "the" Supreme Being. As such, there is no exclusivity in Jesus Christ or the Triune God of the Bible; who is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. As a requirement for membership, the very process of joining the Lodge requires Christians to ignore the exclusivity of Jesus Christ as Lord. Since there is only one Creator of the Universe, the very notion of "Supreme Being" means there can only be one. Freemasonry claims that monotheism is its sole dogma: Monotheism is the sole dogma of Freemasonry. Belief in one God is required of every initiate, but his conception of the Supreme Being is left to his own interpretation. Freemasonry is not concerned with theological distinctions. This is the basis of our universality.
Grand Lodge of Indiana, Indiana Monitor & Freemason's Guide, 1993 Edition, page 41 Notice how the Grand Lodge of Indiana does not say, "his conception of "a" deity is left to his own interpretation." Instead, it states that "his conception of the Supreme Being is left to his own interpretation." This would imply that all concepts of God are one in the same. Clearly the Bible has various names for God, but these various names refer to the God of the Bible, not the false god of the Koran, the Vedas or the Upanishads. Nowhere in the Bible will you find God referred to as "Allah," "Vishnu," or "Brahma," etc. Yet in the Lodge, all Masons must believe in a deity. According to Freemasonry, who accepts people from different religions (Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, etc.) they acknowledge the same God (G.A.O.T.U.) , only call Him different names. Freemasonry teaches that its G.A.O.T.U. [Great Architect of the Universe], whom Masonry believes is the true God of the universe, is representative of all gods in all religions. You have learned that Freemasonry calls God, 'The Great Architect of the Universe" (G.A.O.T.U.). This is the Freemason's special name for God, because he is universal. He belongs to all men regardless of their religious persuasion. All wise men acknowledge His authority. In his private devotions a Mason will pray to Jehovah, Mohammed, Allah, Jesus or the Deity of his choice. In a Masonic Lodge, however, the Mason will find the name of his Deity within the G.A.O.T.U.
- Page 6, The Craft and Its Symbols by Masonic author Allen E. Roberts Is it appropriate for a Christian to acknowledge a symbol, which is supposed to represent a "generic" God in order to satisfy any Mason's concept of deity, including but not limited to Baal, Allah, Ra, Buddha, Jehovah, Vishnu, and Krishna, etc. as well as Jesus Christ, and solely be acknowledging the God of the Bible alone? This is biblically impossible. For such a symbol (or representation) is an idol or false god. And, such tacit approval of this symbol is a violation of the First Commandment: Exodus 20:3-4
You shall have no other gods before [instead of, representative of, or in addition to] me. You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything . . . [emphasis added] As you can see, Freemasonry denies and contradicts the clear teaching of Scripture on more than one issue. As a result, a Christian should not be a member of any organization that causes him/her to knowingly or unknowingly violate the clear teaching of Scripture. Sincerely in Christ's love, NoMore3579
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Post by wayseer on Jan 29, 2008 2:48:00 GMT
... the teachings of Freemasonry ...
... demonstrates a clear lack of understanding - there are no teachings within FM.
Apart from the judgemental attitude demonstrated as there are no teachings in FM the rest of the post is devoid of logical argument.
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Post by maat on Jan 29, 2008 3:37:55 GMT
The Bible teaches that Jesus Christ, and Him alone, is the Creator of all things (Great Architect of the Universe): It seems to me that Jesus, the Christ, did not agree with whoever wrote Bible, because the Bible states quite clearly that Jesus said ""The things that I do, you can do also, even Greater things that I do, IF you believe in me." Q - How can I do something that is even greater than what God can do? And as John has pointed out, Freemasonry has no teachings... it only has stories and symbols which it hopes will enlighten earnest seekers. Exactly the same system/method that the Master Jesus used to enlighten his followers who sought after wisdom. One could say that Masonry/Masons are doing exactly what Jesus told us to do... following His (the Jesus) Way, to the Truth and the Light. If you were a Mason I am really surprised you don't know all this. Maat
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Post by maat on Jan 29, 2008 4:02:41 GMT
Sincerely in Christ's love, Christ's Love is all encompassing.... Christ loves those that others reject. Maat
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Post by nomore3579 on Jan 29, 2008 4:07:49 GMT
... the teachings of Freemasonry ... ... demonstrates a clear lack of understanding - there are no teachings within FM. Apart from the judgemental attitude demonstrated as there are no teachings in FM the rest of the post is devoid of logical argument. John, I know you were hoodwinked when you went through each degree (so was I), but unless they also plugged your ears, they began "teaching" you about Masonry from the moment you were "received on the point of a sharp instrument piercing your naked left breast." It was to "teach you that as this is an instrument of torture to the flesh, so should the recollection thereof be to your mind and conscience should you ever reveal the secrets of Freemasonry unlawfully."Additionally, after you were "brought to light" in each degree, you were given lectures on each degree. And, if your experience was anything like mine, during periods between advancing from one degree to the next, you met periodically for what we Prince Hall Masons called "Lodge of Instruction" in order to receive further Masonic Education. In either case, lectures are lessons and lessons are taught, hence the word "teaching." For any Mason to say that there are no teachings in Freemasonry is completely dishonest. Finally, since you make the claim, can you show me how my post is "devoid of logical argument?" The purpose of a debate is to encourage critical thinking through the exchange of ideas. It's not about jumping to conclusions about an opposing view without facts to support a contrary opinion.
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Post by maat on Jan 29, 2008 4:28:16 GMT
The purpose of a debate is to encourage critical thinking through the exchange of ideas. It's not about jumping to conclusions about an opposing view without facts to support a contrary opinion. Exactly .... I just found my friend Dr Laura to speak on my behalf... she is so logical, and has a sense of humour. Dr Laura and Leviticus Laura Schlesinger is a US radio personality, who dispenses advice to people who call in to her radio show. She recently said that, as an observant Orthodox Jew, homosexuality is an abomination, according to Leviticus 18:22, and cannot be condoned under any circumstances. The following response is an open letter to Dr. Laura which was posted on the Internet. Dear Dr. Laura: Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination... End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements of God's Laws and how to follow them. 1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians? 2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her? 3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense. 4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is, my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them? 5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath.Exodus 35:2. clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it? 6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination? 7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle- room here? 8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die? 9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves? 10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14) I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging. Your adoring fan, Homer Simpson-Caldwell
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Jan 29, 2008 9:43:26 GMT
Good response Bro. Ma'at
Much has been attributed to Jesus and more has been done in his name which I, for one, can not imagine him condoning. He was loving, forgiving and inclusive. His parable of the good Samaritan shows that a person's merits are not limited any particular group. For me, one of Freemasonry's greatest virtues is that it is generally inclusive rather than bigoted and exclusive.
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Post by penfold on Jan 29, 2008 11:10:17 GMT
Welcome to the forum Mike, there are a couple of points I would like to make in response to your post without actually addressing the content. You say you were a PH GL mason, you may or may not be aware that there are significant differences in the practice of freemasonry between GL's across the world, and even within the same country. As an example, the freemasons of the GL of Scotland practice their masonry in a different manner to their bretheren in England and Wales under UGLE. As I understand it PH GL practice is quite different from that of GL of Illinois, for example, and there are also other GL's such as Grand Orient and LDH who are different again. With this in mind I'm sure you can see the futility in trying to ascribe common practices to an organisation that has wide local differences.
As already mentioned, freemasonry inculcates moral lessons through allegory, there is no 'teaching'.
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Post by billmcelligott on Jan 29, 2008 11:50:16 GMT
Oh he knows, Hi Mike hows things going.
still fishing I see.
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Post by nomore3579 on Jan 29, 2008 12:42:42 GMT
Welcome to the forum Mike, there are a couple of points I would like to make in response to your post without actually addressing the content. You say you were a PH GL mason, you may or may not be aware that there are significant differences in the practice of freemasonry between GL's across the world, and even within the same country. As an example, the freemasons of the GL of Scotland practice their masonry in a different manner to their bretheren in England and Wales under UGLE. As I understand it PH GL practice is quite different from that of GL of Illinois, for example, and there are also other GL's such as Grand Orient and LDH who are different again. With this in mind I'm sure you can see the futility in trying to ascribe common practices to an organisation that has wide local differences.
As already mentioned, freemasonry inculcates moral lessons through allegory, there is no 'teaching'.
Thanks Penfold. While everyone else has avoided the subject by responding off topic, at least you were cordial enough to admit that you would reply without addressing the content of my post. In an attempt to get us back on point, let me ask you, while the 'practice' of Freemasonry may vary slightly from jurisdiction to jurisdiction and from one country to another, are there not certain principles and tenets that are common to all? To the point of the thread, isn't the Masonic view of what the G.A.O.T.U. represents the same among all the Masonic groups you've mentioned? If not, please share with us the different views of G.A.O.T.U. held by these Masonic jurisdictions. I can assure you that wherever Prince Hall Masonry is practiced, and I personally practiced it in Europe and in the U.S., the view of G.A.O.T.U. is viewed precisely as described in my opening post. But again, if you're saying that this view is not the widely accepted, general view held by most of Freemasonry, please prove it to me. I practiced Masonry for more than a decade. When I couple that with current research, there is no other Masonic view of God than what I posted. Perhaps it's semantics, or you are not aware of the definitions of the words you use: Main Entry: in·cul·cate: to teach and impress by frequent repetitions or admonitions.
Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary For those of you who insist that Freemasonry doesn't teach anything, I don't know how long you've practiced Masonry, but it sounds like you're trying to convince me that in all that time, you haven't learned a darn thing. I find that hard to believe. But if no one wishes to address the original post and its contents as given, then I will gladly move on and post another thread on yet another incompatibility of the teachings of Freemasonry and biblical Christianity.
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Post by corab on Jan 29, 2008 13:15:09 GMT
Hello Mike, And welcome on board. To the point of the thread, isn't the Masonic view of what the G.A.O.T.U. represents the same among all the Masonic groups you've mentioned? Indeed it is not. You wrote that This incorrect with respect to the International Order of Co-Freemasonry "Le Droit Humain" for three reasons:- 1. It holds the absence of dogma and the absolute freedom of conscience to be landmarks, so there is no dogma; 2. As a consequence it does demand its candidates to profess to have a monotheistic belief system; and 3. It does not demand a belief in "God". Our Order is an International Order and allows its national Federations and Jurisdictions the choice as to whether they wish to work to TGAOTU or to the progress of humanity. This is based on Art. 8 of our Int. Constitution, which states that our lodges "work to the Glory of TGAOTU and / or the perfection of humanity" -- whereby "perfection" is a mistranslation of the French source text "progres". In the British Federation this translates as us, as Federation, asserting a belief in a creative principle known as TGAOTU. We don't define that "creative principle". This much of what you say is correct: the candidate's / Brother's concept of this creative principle is left to his or her own interpretation. Kind regards, Cora
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Jan 29, 2008 14:52:16 GMT
If, as in a number of masonic jurisdictions, there was no requirement for a profession of belief in the existence of a Supreme Being, would you still object to Freemasonry?
Do you object to Christians and non-Christians coming together in other contexts, such as education, sports, government and employment? Or, for that matter, in inter-religious dialogs?
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Post by nomore3579 on Jan 29, 2008 15:17:59 GMT
If, as in a number of masonic jurisdictions, there was no requirement for a profession of belief in the existence of a Supreme Being, would you still object to Freemasonry? Do you object to Christians and non-Christians coming together in other contexts, such as education, sports, government and employment? Or, for that matter, in inter-religious dialogs? To answer your first question, yes I would still object to Freemasonry for other reasons, which I will post as new threads for separate discussions on other issues regarding the biblical incompatibility of Freemasonry. I like to keep things organized on one subject at a time. As for your second question, no I do not have a problem with the other contexts you list for Christians and non-Christians to come together. In those settings they do not come together for the purpose of expressing a spiritual brotherhood under an all-encompassing, generic deity. Additionally, I strongly support Christians knowing and developing relationships with non-Christians, but primarily to ultimately allow such relationships to lead the non-believer to faith in Jesus Christ, through whom is the only way to salvation, and the only way to have a genuine relationship with God (John 14:6).
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Post by waynecowley on Jan 29, 2008 15:37:51 GMT
Hi Mike
Glad to see you are still well and looking for our company
Wayne
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Post by xiii on Jan 29, 2008 15:47:56 GMT
In extension of Tamrin's questions: How about Christians coming together in a Christian, masonic order, such as Rectified Scottish Rite or Swedish Rite?
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Post by maximus on Jan 29, 2008 16:19:47 GMT
Additionally, I strongly support Christians knowing and developing relationships with non-Christians, but primarily to ultimately allow such relationships to lead the non-believer to faith in Jesus Christ, through whom is the only way to salvation, and the only way to have a genuine relationship with God (John 14:6). Or so you believe. The problem being that the Creator, being infinite in scope and concept, is beyond knowing with the limited power of the human mind. Any conceptualisation that we imagine is a nessesarily limiting concept of the Limitless Light. That some have chosen to create dogma, and believe that only thier dogma is correct, is one of the great tragadies and sorrows of human existance.
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Post by devoutfreemason on Jan 29, 2008 18:14:25 GMT
Good response Bro. Ma'at Much has been attributed to Jesus and more has been done in his name which I, for one, can not imagine him condoning. He was loving, forgiving and inclusive. His parable of the good Samaritan shows that a person's merits are not limited any particular group. For me, one of Freemasonry's greatest virtues is that it is generally inclusive rather than bigoted and exclusive. Beautiful post Brother.
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Jan 29, 2008 19:51:16 GMT
Mike, Would you object to non-Christians being Freemasons?
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Post by maat on Jan 29, 2008 21:46:17 GMT
;D HA! Giant stuff up by blonde Maat... Dr Laura is Mike's friend, good old Homer Simpson-Caldwell is my friend. Geez - some days are just better n'others.
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Post by Antonius on Jan 29, 2008 22:21:11 GMT
I strongly support Christians knowing and developing relationships with non-Christians, but primarily to ultimately allow such relationships to lead the non-believer to faith in Jesus Christ, through whom is the only way to salvation, and the only way to have a genuine relationship with God (John 14:6). at the risk of yet again being punished my bluntness: where i come from we have a word for this kind of thinking. it starts with an 'F' and ends with an 'ism'. first you seem to displace the burden of proof. if you want to criticise something for the reason that it opposes something, then you must first proove that that something actualy exists. second the real issue here is not with masonry nor with scripture, it is with your desire to arbitrarily decide for other people what christianity is supposed to mean for them, and you simply do not have the right to do that. if you think masonry is incompatible with your religion, then that realy means masonry is incompatible with you. what christianity means to other christians is their buisness and no1 else's, ditto for masonry. as for scripture, how meny homosexuals and rape victims have you stoned to death this week? did you go out and kill your own brother because he was worshipping false idols? how can you make a case based on the letter, when you yourself arbitrarily pick and choose wich rules to follow? you believe whatever lets u sleep at night dude, but dont be telling others what to believe, that makes baby jesus cry...
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