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Post by penfold on May 5, 2008 15:39:10 GMT
Ok, well alls well that ends well
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Post by leonardo on May 5, 2008 17:15:00 GMT
Ok, well alls well that ends well
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Post by freimaurer45 on May 5, 2008 18:40:25 GMT
According to some here, "Mainstream" Freemasonry is an abomination because we have a brain drain and its members are just slap-happy stupids that eat barbeque. So, a new group wants to gather its own brain trust and turn that phenomenon around. Indeed, there's been a lack of it for a long time and a new kid on the block does not hurt regarding this issue.
Now, those who would already call the "mainstream" devoid of philosophy complain because brothers are doing it for themselves. Yet there are those, in their perpetual expectation of all rights and privileges for everything, are not invited this time around.
Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Why the pain, I ask? So don't become a subscriber and complain about it here. For once, just see something for what it is and be happy for it for a change, sheesh. If you can't even do that, go form your own group and gather up all the great minds left behind.
It's simple really. So why the perpetual crabbiness on this board?
Consider that the regulations (which should be no surprise to any Mason, considering they are well established and have been so for a long time) are in place because it frees that organization to do what it does and not have to deal with problems at every turn (and if the ongoing fights over who gets to do what in Freemasonry is any indication, that is reason unto itself to limit membership). Is that an acceptable reason? Please let them know what you decide.
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Post by parisfred on May 5, 2008 21:03:44 GMT
There is other kind of masonic research society as the IDHERM in France. "IDERM (Institute for Masonic Research and Studies) was created in 1974. Its aim is to promote and support, historical and institutional researches, amongst others, related to Universal Free-Masonry. Although, the history of Free-Masonry remains the core of IDERM’s prerogatives, any Masonic sociological, philosophical or linguistic studies are also taken into account. The Institute has for vocation to assemble researchers, but also anyone interested in what can be described as the Masonic phenomena, what ever the time or place might be. IDERM is closely related to GODF for its functioning, but it is far more than a simple historical commission of the obedience. The SGM is its president by right and two members order’s council seat at the administrative council of IDERM: the vice president and the grand treasury officer who is also the treasury officer of the association. This is an association based on the 1920th law, supported by the GODF, open to outside members. BB and SS from other obedience and even a few profane passionate with Masonic history are members. There are many different activities. The most traditional activity is the reunion; it takes place every third Thursday of each month, Rue Cadet, during which a researcher is invited to present its work. A debate follows the reunion. Each month, all LL of the obedience receive a letter from IDERM that announces future conferences. It also send a press review of Masonic books which collection is a precious guide considering the ever expending number of books. IDERM also organise colloquium. At last, IDERM’s booklets are published regularly again. IDERM has an international influence; the activities of the BB that participate has contributed to make the association well known even across the channel and the Atlantic ocean. This implies that BB from obedience that do not recognise the GODF do not hesitate to use IDERM’s resources and recognise the quality of its publications." or this one : www.renaissance-traditionnelle.org/articles.htm
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Post by billmcelligott on May 5, 2008 21:11:06 GMT
Sorry freimaurer45 that is not what has happened here.
You have not quoted from this thread, so please it is just not accurate. There have been a couple complaining they are not permitted to join and a couple as I have defending the right of the group to do whateevr it wishes to do. Looks pretty even to me.
No one has said ""Mainstream" Freemasonry is an abomination" or ""mainstream" devoid of philosophy complain because brothers are doing it for themselves"
Now I am mainstream and I have read the thread twice and it is just not there.
Whenever you create something new you have to accept that it will not be liked by everyone. Its hard to believe I know but I am not liked by everyone, yes no good saying "what not you Bill". I don't have a bad thought in my head but some think that it is so.
Why ?
Because I put myself on the line. And when you do that take it on the chin, when someone tells you you have it all wrong.
Time will tell, I hope the results match the hopes. Good luck with the new Group and if there is anything I can do to be of assistance I will gladly do it. you will find links being inserted for The Masonic Society web pages on the Lodgeroom International sites soon.
If you would like to supply an article we will put it in our Monthly on line Magazine. if you wish.
So its all good, chill a bit.
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Post by freimaurer45 on May 5, 2008 21:50:12 GMT
Sorry freimaurer45 that is not what has happened here. You have not quoted from this thread, so please it is just not accurate. There have been a couple complaining they are not permitted to join and a couple as I have defending the right of the group to do whateevr it wishes to do. Looks pretty even to me. No one has said ""Mainstream" Freemasonry is an abomination" or ""mainstream" devoid of philosophy complain because brothers are doing it for themselves" Now I am mainstream and I have read the thread twice and it is just not there. Whenever you create something new you have to accept that it will not be liked by everyone. Its hard to believe I know but I am not liked by everyone, yes no good saying "what not you Bill". I don't have a bad thought in my head but some think that it is so. Why ? Because I put myself on the line. And when you do that take it on the chin, when someone tells you you have it all wrong. Time will tell, I hope the results match the hopes. Good luck with the new Group and if there is anything I can do to be of assistance I will gladly do it. you will find links being inserted for The Masonic Society web pages on the Lodgeroom International sites soon. If you would like to supply an article we will put it in our Monthly on line Magazine. if you wish. So its all good, chill a bit. No, not in this thread but elsewhere on this forum in the past it has been said and implied many times. That is from whence I take my cue. It seems to me that at every juncture someone wants inclusion whether it's their right or not. In regular U.S. Masonry, few hours are actually spent with brethren because we're pushed to include everybody--family, friends, etc. When we finally get a meeting to ourselves, we're labeled as "elitist". Be careful about labels! Those charging a group as being elitist do so because they believe themselves to be better than that group--otherwise, why the criticism? Why not just shrug and walk away? Now, when a group of regulars get together, the others in this broad well of Freemasonry complain endlessly that they are not included, make up silly names for them or pontificate on the nature of inclusion and the depravity of regularity or..., &c. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Why is it that we're supposed to endlessly "take it on the chin"? This is a non-issue, really. Like you said, Bill, either subscribe or don't. Why all the wailing?
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Post by leonardo on May 5, 2008 22:05:54 GMT
freimaurer45, please give examples of where you're coming from to support your:
According to some here, "Mainstream" Freemasonry is an abomination because we have a brain drain and its members are just slap-happy stupids that eat barbeque.
comments.
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on May 5, 2008 22:19:23 GMT
Those charging a group as being elitist do so because they believe themselves to be better than that group Huh!? I now call upon all irregular Masons to please signify in the usual manner.... None present, we may proceed.
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Post by billmcelligott on May 5, 2008 23:26:17 GMT
No, I said 'I take it on the chin', as has been demonstrated on a number of occasions.
I always refer to the ritual in time of trial. "Suffice it to say, what you find praiseworthy in other you should carefully imitate, and what in them may appear defective you should in yourself amend."
But yes you either sign up or you don't, it is up to each to decide.
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Post by maat on May 6, 2008 0:27:22 GMT
Their choice Bro Leo. I run a Masonic Forum where I have a policy that certain people will not be allowed to join and post there, assuming they wanted to in the first place.......my choice. Yes, as I found out when I attempted to sign up. ... just remember what happened to the stone that was rejected... Maat
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Post by maat on May 6, 2008 0:28:59 GMT
"The ultimate success of Masonry depends on the intelligence of her disciples."
Selective because she is jealous?
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Post by billmcelligott on May 6, 2008 0:57:44 GMT
Those charging a group as being elitist do so because they believe themselves to be better than that group Asking why, what and when is reasonable. Complaining because you cant get what you want is not. But complaining about the person complaining because they can not get what they want, is just as silly. If some people are excluded from a group then they have every right to ask why. But like Groucho Marx said, 'I would not want to join a group that would have me as a member'. There is or at least should be some middle ground. Questions have been asked and answered, like the man said if you don't like it leave it alone.
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imakegarb
Member
One wee, sleeket, cowran, tim'rous beastie
Posts: 3,573
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Post by imakegarb on May 6, 2008 4:46:17 GMT
Greetings Bro. Frei45, I did not, in any way, shape or form - nor have I ever; nor would I - refer to Male-Only Masonry as "an abomination". I've never suggested y'all are suffering a brain drain (how would I even know?). I have never in any way, shape or form suggested in even the slightest that Male-Only Masons "are just slap-happy stupids that eat barbecue". I don't believe any of that. I would not say it. Further, I have never stated that Male-Only Masons are "devoid" of philosophy. Clearly, they are not. And I also am not complaining because they "are doing it for themselves." If you care to check, you'll see I was very clear about what I pointed out. That my money is good enough for them but I am not. *I* think that's rather a stunning and valid point, considering this is not a Masonic supreme body but is, instead, a group of noted scholars. It is, I think, a point worth making. Bro. Frei, it was Male-Only Masons who pointed me toward Co-Masonry. It was Male-Only Masons who introduced me to Masonic scholarship and it was Male-Only Masonry who provided me with what seems to be the bedrock of my Masonic career. Male-Only Masons have been good and kind to me. I would never say any of these things you have said. For to do so would be a slap in the faces of those who've shown me such love, mercy and compassion. But none of that seems to matter. Bro. Frei, you don't name me in any of the above but I clearly am the target. You are not the only Male-Only Mason to accuse me of saying things I have not. Of holding positions I manifestly do not. Of being against Male-Only Masonry, which I most certainly am not. I really don't mind criticism. Heck, I welcome it. But I want it to be fair. Go after me for what I *do* say. Go after me for positions I *do* hold. For if I'm worthy of criticism, then reasons shouldn't have to be manufactured. If I deserve slander, there should be no need to build up a straw man and put my name on it. That is a strategy, to be sure, but it does not well become a gentleman, or Brother. Peace to you, my Brother.
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Post by whistler on May 6, 2008 11:10:25 GMT
According to some here, "Mainstream" Freemasonry is an abomination because we have a brain drain and its members are just slap-happy stupids that eat barbeque. So, a new group wants to gather its own brain trust and turn that phenomenon around. Indeed, there's been a lack of it for a long time and a new kid on the block does not hurt regarding this issue. Now, those who would already call the "mainstream" devoid of philosophy complain because brothers are doing it for themselves. Yet there are those, in their perpetual expectation of all rights and privileges for everything, are not invited this time around. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Why the pain, I ask? So don't become a subscriber and complain about it here. For once, just see something for what it is and be happy for it for a change, sheesh. If you can't even do that, go form your own group and gather up all the great minds left behind. It's simple really. So why the perpetual crabbiness on this board? Consider that the regulations (which should be no surprise to any Mason, considering they are well established and have been so for a long time) are in place because it frees that organization to do what it does and not have to deal with problems at every turn (and if the ongoing fights over who gets to do what in Freemasonry is any indication, that is reason unto itself to limit membership). Is that an acceptable reason? Please let them know what you decide. Wow that is impressive Freimaurer45 _ love the expression "Slap-happy stupid" where on earth did you find that - reminds me of Albert Pikes Stupid atheists - Hey Freimaurer45 I don't think that way of Malecraft Freemasons - I just think of them as guys who focus in a different direction from those who inherit their Freemasonry from traditions many many years earlier than the 1700's - Crabbiness is another quaint expression reminds me of crab apple jam - so well done Freimanure45 from bring such humour to the board
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Post by freimaurer45 on May 7, 2008 19:32:59 GMT
Bro. Karen, let it rest. You were not the target of my post so your assumptions that you were and the attendant insult to me were unwarranted. Even though you won an award still doesn't make it all about you.
I said my peace and obviously others have an opinion. Great. But don't overstate its importance in the scheme of things. My overall assessment of this thread and why it even exists is that no matter what, somebody always feels qualified to make judgments, yet maintains that responsibility lies elsewhere. That is fine with me--even if they are wrong, they may hold true for you. But just you. Spreading the same dissatisfaction over three forums goes over that limit. It fortifies a culture of abject expectation and an inflated sense of persecution.
Now this is directed to you Bro. Karen: remember that you were the one that brought this up in response to Bro. Chris' post. No harm, but remember that others beside you have something to say. Yet, we all act like victims when we're surprised that someone doesn't agree. I see that many here disagree with my opinions, but do a favor to yourselves and realize your cute insults do not address the bankruptcy of the initial complaint.
In short, who cares? Don't join. Last I heard the sun still rises. Go enjoy it, please. Let love rule. Aren't we open minded?
And with that, I have said my peace. With respect, I bid you all adieu. I pray that peace comes swiftly for you and whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with all thy might.
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imakegarb
Member
One wee, sleeket, cowran, tim'rous beastie
Posts: 3,573
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Post by imakegarb on May 7, 2008 19:44:39 GMT
I don't recall any insults from me. Cute or otherwise.
And I don't think it's all about me. Quite the opposite.
That's the truth of it. But I see, in this case, the truth matters not at all. It seems more important to get your digs in where you can. And then tell ME to get over it.
I will bear this in mind in future.
Fare you well.
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on May 7, 2008 20:40:12 GMT
For the record, an expression of disappointment is not the same as a complaint. I too am disappointed that, at a time when examples such as the biennial International Conference on the History of Freemasonry ( ICHF) show that pointless barriers can and are increasingly being overcome, that an otherwise laudable new body should go against that trend. I am not complaining but I am disappointed, as the restriction can only diminish its work.
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Post by maximus on May 7, 2008 20:43:51 GMT
Bro. Karen, let it rest. You were not the target of my post so your assumptions that you were and the attendant insult to me were unwarranted. Even though you won an award still doesn't make it all about you. That was uncalled for. You may wish to tone down your rhetoric here. Apparently, someone cares. It seems I detect an undercurrent from certain quarters to shut Bro. Karen down. That indicates that someone feels that her voice is somehow...dangerous? Threatening? Makes one... uncomfortable? If not, why all the hoopla? Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Love is the Law, love under will.
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Post by freimaurer45 on May 7, 2008 21:10:49 GMT
<quote>. It seems I detect an undercurrent from certain quarters to shut Bro. Karen down. </quote>
No, it's not that conspiratorial I can assure you. Sorry for that disappointment. None of us here are that important. And I do not mean to sound harsh toward Bro. Karen. For the record, my original post wasn't necessarily direct toward her. Yes, one can be upset or disappointed but it just seems to me in a very depressing way that everyone has to be so critical every step of the way and so right all of the time.
I respect Bro. Karen a lot. I'm just disappointed that many feel the need to be so negative over nothing and feel compelled to crusade on several other sites, all the while expecting someone to immediately agree. I felt the same way when the GOUSA thing came up. I felt the same way when several sites began hosting posturing matches about who agrees or disagrees with regularity.
I find it a shame that it's all lovey free speech until someone disagrees. If one is offended, I'm sorry about that. The original rhetoric was pretty heavy too, so there are no innocents here. I know I'm not.
Maybe it's a matter of perspective: one can choose to take everything as a slight whether or not it was intended or one can accept things as they are. Yes, one may join the SRRS, but for voting rights on their board, you MUST be a AASRSJ member--and one that has earned the right to even be considered for the board. I am not on this particular board, nor do I think one would be compelled to have me on it. Am I upset? Hardly.
I can only subscribe to AQC. Most Masons could never hope to be full members or fellows of that lodge? Why? Those that are admitted into membership must be qualified.
Freemasonry in general is the same way and just because one managed to get in doesn't guarantee a breezy, fun road filled with entitlement and free rides.
That's just the way the world is. So, sorry to you all if you can't join this particular group or if you can but disagree with its set up. Simply put, that's just the way it is. But the knowledge is widespread and available for those of every stripe who wish to use it. Use of knowledge is not predicated on one's ability to "belong" to any organization or society unless one is obsessed with the notion of belonging for their own edification or wanting a cool new pin.
I guess it's just me: I don't see how or why an announcement for a research society even needs to be commented upon in such a way--especially when the rules for membership should be of little surprise. I mean, there's so much more to talk about than yet another degenerating thread about Masonic aparteid.
I don't find this concept to be offensive or unreasonable. Furthermore, all that can be said has already been said. Please continue with the regularly scheduled program.
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on May 7, 2008 21:36:01 GMT
I felt the same way when several sites began hosting posturing matches about who agrees or disagrees with regularity. For the record, I have not come across anyone disagreeing with "regularity" per se.
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