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Post by elshamah on Jun 13, 2008 12:49:07 GMT
i will repeat. Only this presumtion that freemasonry is able to improve men, is a heresy. Men by its own is not able, and has no capability, to improve and transform its human nature. Only God can do this, through spiritual born again, as mentioned in Gospel John, chapter 3. Would you deny God the possibility of acting through and using Freemasonry for that purpose? That is what we are here for! lets give a look at the french official freemason site : www.gldf.org/content/view/34/43/lang,fr/ principles and fundamentals : La Grande Loge de France travaille à la Gloire du Grand Architecte de l’Univers. the grand lodge works for the glory of the grand architect of the universe. remarkable that despite this declaration, freemasonry claims not to be a religion So : who is this GAOTU ?? is it the God of the bible ?? the same page gives the answer : La Grande Loge de France n’exige pas de ses membres la croyance en « Dieu et sa volonté révélée » comme le font d’autres obédiences. no God, that has revealed himself and his will, is the base of faith of the members of freemasonry . That meens, the God of the bible is excluded as well. Jesus said : who is not FOR me, is AGAINST me. So the conclusion is : Freemasonry is ANTI Christian. Is a ANTI Christ organisation. point finale.
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Jun 13, 2008 13:00:00 GMT
So : who is this GAOTU ?? Allo, Allo! Listen very carefully, I will say this only once: It is a generic title or description, NOT a name, and one which any believer in any Supreme Being would ordinarily be comfortable in attributing to their concept of God.
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Post by AndyF on Jun 13, 2008 13:13:21 GMT
So : who is this GAOTU ?? is it the God of the bible ?? the same page gives the answer : Some (quite a lot actually) believe that the "God" of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, are the same God with a different name. Each group has their unique way of worshipping him, relating to him, and even naming him. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that those Masons who fall into that category believe the honour is going to that God, via a term that encompasses them all. What may offend you is that those who don't fall into that category, realise that their God is included in that term. So no matter how you look at it, we're not denying the God of the Bible the honour he deserves. The stance of Freemasonry is that it tries be a fraternal organisation which holds Godliness in high regard, and would like to convey that without offending or excluding any particular faith. With this in mind, any brother who left Freemasonry because he felt it was at odds with his faith has merely misunderstood, or formed an interpretation of his own which was largely different from the organisation's intent. Freemasonry isn't neccessarily incompatible with Christianity. You can twist words as much as you like to make it look that way, but we've said from the start, and still maintain, that Freemasonry contains nothing of an anti-christian nature. I hope this addresses the testimonies of former freemasons on those sites you keep linking to. No one needs to be a Freemason. Certainly lots of people want to be one. The question shouldn't be "why", but "why not?". It wont grant you salvation, or provide you with religious instruction, but it can be a fulfilling way to interact with others who value charity, morality, and Godliness. TGAOTU is a label applied to the Supreme Being - whoever the Brethren happen to believe that to be. They don't worship this Supreme Being in lodge, and aren't told who or what to worship, as religious discussion is banned - that, and Freemasonry is not a religion, nor a substitute for one. Ask us again who the GAOTU is. I honestly don't mind repeatedly quoting the answer. Over the weekend I may just got through this thread and count the number of times you've asked this, despite being given the same answers by several different people. On the subject of all anti mason sites being hoaxes and lies, consider this: If someone tells you the world is flat, and research tells you that it was proved round many years ago, it wouldn't matter how many websites said it was flat. They all state the same thing, which has been disproved, so yes they are all wrong. Incorrect "facts" aren't suddenly correct when lots of people quote them.
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Post by AndyF on Jun 13, 2008 13:19:14 GMT
Well, its getting late and I'm off to bed. I've got a long day of goat rodgering and poop eating rituals lined up in devotion of our pagan gods Gadu and Jabalong.
Goodnight.
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Post by penfold on Jun 13, 2008 13:26:56 GMT
Elshamah, as you seem to like copying and pasting from websites here is some info you appear to have missed Just for you a message from the head of freemasonry to start with Here is a message from Freemasonry's top leader: Did you notice that there is NO MESSAGE above? It's not that there's a broken graphic or that your browser isn't working properly. It is because: No One Person (or Organization) speaks for all of Freemasonry!Freemasonry is a wide and diverse organization throughout the world. It's growth and development in each location has been responsive to the nation in which it exists and the makeup of its membership. In addition, there have been many organizations which have appeared over the years 'imitating' Masonry and calling themselves 'Masons'. Among the great majority of Masonic entities which recognize each other (using "Ancient Landmarks" and other commonalties derived from the beginning of the organization 300 years ago), however, there is no one leader. Each Grand Lodge (the highest governing body for each particular group of Masons) is independent and decides matters as it feels is appropriate. A Grand Master speaks for his Grand Jurisdiction but ONLY when he is serving as Grand Master and ONLY for his specific Jurisdiction. Thus the statements of the Grand Master of the Grand Lodge of Masons in California is no more binding upon or reflective of the positions of the United Grand Lodge of Germany than are the rules of the Japanese-American Friendship Association upon the City Council of Kilmarnock, Scotland! Because of the bonds between Masons, the Grand Master of the Grand Lodge of the Philippines will certainly consider a position on a particular matter taken by the Grand Lodge of Massachusetts but he is not bound in any way to proceed similarly. Further, the statements made by the head of "appendant" or "related" or "corollary" bodies or organizations are no more binding on Freemasonry than in the examples cited above. Using the comments by one person speaking for himself or his organization to claim that they 'represent the thinking of Masonry' is simply a falsehood. Using the quotes of someone who wrote a book one hundred years ago is just as inappropriate, particularly when one considers that the organization which he headed was not world-wide nor was it even recognized by as many as half the Masons in the world at that time. No one person speaks for Freemasonry!
Not now - Not EVER! Considering the information above, one could reasonably ask: "How, then, does one determine the 'true nature' of Freemasonry?" The question is a difficult one to answer since Freemasonry is not identical throughout the earth. Even two lodges in the same city may be seen as being 'different' from one another in their approach to things as mundane as how the minutes of meetings should be kept and while they would share the same ritual and the same Grand Lodge regulations, their activities and interests might be widely diverse. Particularly for those seeking to 'label' Freemasonry by finding one single book (or a select few of them), this presents an enormous challenge. It is particularly distressing for the anti-Mason arguing on religious grounds when they themselves are so used to speaking on behalf of far more people than they should. (They regularly write such things as "All Christians believe ...," "Christians would agree...," "You can't be a Christian and believe...." assuming a mantle that is both false and preposterous in its assumptions.) Freemasonry is very much a personal experience and although it may be enriched by books or presentations of 'top Masonic leaders', their interpretations are no more binding on the thought processes of the individual Mason than speeches made by his town leader. For those who are not Freemasons, this concept is extraordinarily difficult to understand much less accept; for those who have been Masons, however, it's as basic as life itself! www.masonicinfo.com/leader.htmOn JesusReligious intolerants will sometimes charge that Jesus is excluded from Freemasonry. This arises from the specific exclusion of religious and/or political matters within the Lodge, knowing that they often become a cause of dissent and division. The person making the charge may thus conclude that because they cannot 'witness' (preach, proselytize, whatever), Jesus has been excluded. Nothing could be further from the truth and, in fact, the open Bible upon the altar of lodges is most often a King James Version despite the presence of Masons who are Muslims, Jews and a variety of other faiths. Each Mason recognizes that the Bible is 'representative' of his own Holy Book - and each Mason recognizes that when the Chaplain offers a prayer aloud, it is certainly acceptable that he offer one of his own faith and manner in the privacy of his own devotion. Some religious intolerants will argue that all prayers must be offered in the name of Jesus, failing to recognize two basic points: 1) no one prohibits them from doing exactly that! The Chaplain of the Lodge offers a prayer which will be acceptable to those of all faiths who are present. However there is nothing to prevent an individual member from adding to it mentally. 2) that - if they are theologically true to their beliefs - God and Jesus are one and the same so a prayer offered to God would, in effect, be offered to Jesus as well. Arguing that Jesus is "left out" when a prayer is offered to God whom Trinitarian Christians would argue is one and the same as Jesus to be somewhat disingenuous. Some religious intolerants also argue that the lodge format precludes their ability to 'witness' to others. They fail to recognize, however, that this is no different than a meeting of the local city council or the stockholders of a corporation. Proselytizing and preaching would be just as out of place there and although a precious few zealots would do so nevertheless, their activities would be quickly squelched. It has nothing to do with a disdain for religion -- It has nothing to do with 'excluding Jesus' -- Masons gather together for a non-religious purpose; interjection of religion, therefore, is inappropriate. No Mason is ever precluded from following his own religious tenets, however, and each has obligated himself to owe his first allegiance to God - and only thereafter (following his family and his neighbors) to the Fraternity. www.masonicinfo.com/excludesjesus.htmFreemasonry is a religion - its not!Religions do the following (though details vary from one to the next): Practice sacerdotal functions - Masonry does NOT! Freemasonry has certain 'rituals' when lodges are opened, closed, or receive new members. These in no way imitate religious ceremonies except insofar as they are serious and solemn times, free of laughter and frivolity. Perhaps our detractors think the only time one should be serious is in Church? Teach Theology - Masonry does NOT! Anti-Masons will argue that Freemasonry has it's own Bible (untrue!) and that lessons are read from it. They ignore (or don't even realize) that a single Biblical verse is incorporated into each of the three degrees. These are generally not read but given by memory from the officer who is designated as the Lodge Chaplain. This does NOT occur at each and every meeting: it ONLY occurs when degrees are being conferred - something which may happen from as much as 60-70% of the time on down to once a year or less. It is NOT done at each meeting! Further, though, having a Biblical verse to underscore a particular lesson, does not 'teach' theology - and, in fact, it's always the same three verses each and every time, year after year. Pretty limited teaching, huh? Some detractors apparently feel, though, that even such limited 'teaching' should be limited to their 'preacher' (who might not have any training in matters of divinity at all). These are often the folks who then themselves will 'explain' what the Bible 'really means'.... <SIGH> Simply put, the Bible contains many beautiful and meaningful lessons. Is there some reason that it should not be shared with everyone? Ordain Clergy - Masonry does NOT! Critics have argued that the Master of the Lodge is a substitute for clergy within the Masonic Lodge. While we stand open for correction, we do not believe that any religious group elects their clergy by popular ballot from amongst their midst and limits their term of office to a single year.* Such a claim is ludicrous at best and any Mason who has served their lodge as Master knows full well that the power of office is truly temporal. <Masonicinfo Note: An Australian correspondent advises us that the Christadelphians do this but perhaps for a 3-4 year term. Information we've been able to locate on that religion is a bit inconclusive and one website describes the elders as being "appointed". Regardless, we should 'Never say Never', eh? And we also suspect that the Christadelphians don't have progressive leadership offices through which one must pass before becoming a Lodge Master!> Define sin and salvation - Masonry does NOT! Critics argue that certain Masonic ritual (not universal but found in many jurisdictions) refers in an incorrect way to the "Great White Throne". Masons are encouraged to live clean and moral lives that when the end of their days on earth are done, they may join their Father 'who is in Heaven'. Anti-Masons wish to make much of this yet we wonder: would they prefer that any organizations not related to their own be telling their members to live immoral and evil lives simply because they see themselves as the only true interpreters of God's word? Perform sacraments - Masonry does NOT! Rituals today have little significance for most people. They have never seen anything as solemn as the ordination of a Priest, may have created their own wedding ceremony with little or no regard for prior conventions and, in general, be totally unfamiliar with things such as protocol, pomp and circumstance. It may well be that one of the reasons so many Americans travel to Britain each year to witness the changing of the Guard at Buckingham Palace, were so fascinated by the wedding of Prince Charles and Princess Diana, or become so absorbed at things like the solemn and serious process involved in guarding the Tomb of the Unknowns at Arlington National Ceremony is due to their lack of exposure to 'ritual'. However, because something is performed in a 'ritualistic' (i.e., repeated identically each time it is done) does not mean that it is a 'sacrament' NOR does it mean that it is in any way attempting to imitate a church function. If this were so, the military should stop teaching recruits how to march! Publish or specify a Holy Book - Masonry does NOT! In fact, Masons are encouraged to follow the tenets and beliefs of their own religion. The Bible which is on the altar of every Masonic lodge is representative of the Holy Books of all faiths. Further, Masons take their obligations on the Holy Book of their choosing with some deciding to do so using the Bible as the Holy representative of their particular belief. Despite the constant claims of anti-Masons, Albert Pike's book - "Morals and Dogma" - is NOT a guide of ANY kind for Freemasonry. It was written 150 years ago (150 years after Masonry in its present form came into being) and was the work of a single person who wanted to express HIS views. For several decades it was given as a gift to the men who joined the Southern United States jurisdiction of the Scottish Rite. Were it not for anti-Masons and the internet, it would be virtually unknown today. Describe or define the Deity - Masonry does NOT! Masonic detractors claim that the God of Freemasonry is GAOTU. These initials are simply an acronym for "Grand Architect of the Universe" (sometimes in the past referred to in the more ancient term of Grand Artificer). Again, because Freemasonry specifies no particular religious belief but encourages its members to follow the beliefs of their own religion, prayers in lodge may refer to the Grand Architect of the Universe. Members are free to mentally insert the name they wish in its stead. Certain religious extremists argue that any prayer not offered in the name of Jesus is somehow invalid, ignoring the fact that then Jesus' own prayers would have been so. We do not discuss individual's religious beliefs on this site but merely point out that if a Mason believes that every prayer should be addressed to Jesus, Mary, Allah, or in some other way as represented by his religion, he is free to do so. The Grand Architect of the Universe is God and to claim that Masons somehow worship someone or something else is obfuscation at best and a heinous lie at worst. I would like you to take the time to read these articles and to respond to them. You can trust the site they are taken from as it is a trustworthy and well researched and TRUTHFUL website on freemasonry.
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Post by elshamah on Jun 13, 2008 13:46:49 GMT
If we take your proposition then we can see that even a man of bad character and loose morals is equal to a man of good character and good morals and that there is no need to try to improve oneself because all we have to do is take a bath and say 'I am saved' , do you really think that God does not know the difference. The entire life and teachings of Jesus was an instruction manual to improve yourself. Why would he object to some of us trying to do just that. Lets see what one of my selected freemason site says : Masonic ritual teaches us to reach for a higher standard in conducting our lives. the chorus is about the same, at all freemason sites, with one of their main objective www.scottishritemasons-can.org/The purpose of the Scottish Rite, simply stated, isto aid mankind's search in God's universe for identity, for development and for destiny, and thereby achieve better men in a better world, happier men in a happier world and wiser men in a wiser world. These objectives are a heresy in itself, as said before, because freemasonry claims to be able to develop and better men. Only God can do this. No ritual, no freemason teachings, nothing else. the bible says, only God has the power and capability to change men, through spiritual new born in Christ. This happens, when someone accepts Jesus Christ as his Lord ans saviour. However , it does not remain only with a simple decision. The decision is just a new start, however, with a new nature, a spiritual nature, a gift of God, and with this new nature, men is able to start to serve God in the way, God wants to. Only through the power of God, in the spiritually new born men, he is able to develop and better. The ultimate goal is to get more similar to the only perfect man, then lived on this earth : Jesus Christ.
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Post by AndyF on Jun 13, 2008 14:41:47 GMT
The score board so far:
"Pike count" represents how many times elshamah has brought up Albert Pike and insinuated he represents all freemasons, and that his works are largely accepted and representative of freemasonry.
"God of freemasonry count" represents how many times elshamah has asked who the god of freemasonry is, about the nature of the God of freemasonry, or tried to argue in some way that there is a God of freemasonry.
So far- Pike count: 8 God of freemasonry count: 14
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Post by billmcelligott on Jun 13, 2008 15:04:00 GMT
Exactly and how do you know he does not use Freemasonry. You do not know, because by your own doctrine , only God can do this.
The only way you could know , was if you were privy to Gods conduct.
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Post by elshamah on Jun 13, 2008 15:22:06 GMT
Exactly and how do you know he does not use Freemasonry. You do not know, because by your own doctrine , only God can do this. The only way you could know , was if you were privy to Gods conduct. Matthew 13 The Parable of the Sower 1That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat by the lake. 2Such large crowds gathered around him that he got into a boat and sat in it, while all the people stood on the shore. 3Then he told them many things in parables, saying: "A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. 8Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. 9He who has ears, let him hear." 10The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?" 11He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 13This is why I speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. 14In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: " 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. 15For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.' 16But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. 17For I tell you the truth, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.
I DO know, because the bible, the word of God, tells me. God does make the transformation of men through his holy spirit. ONLY. Not trough any human organisation, not through rites , and anything else.
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Let us now elshamah rely on pure logic, if you are correct and only the will of god determines which person is a Christian and which is not and no other event makes any difference, why did Jesus bother to talk to the people, why did he use parables to make the complicated easier to understand.
Because Freemasonry is just a parable. Parables based upon a living theatre of the Holy Bible.
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Post by thevoiceofreason on Jun 13, 2008 15:48:01 GMT
Exactly and how do you know he does not use Freemasonry. You do not know, because by your own doctrine , only God can do this. The only way you could know , was if you were privy to Gods conduct. I DO know, because the bible, the word of God, tells me. God does make the transformation of men through his holy spirit. ONLY. Not trough any human organisation, not through rites , and anything else. Right there, that Angelo is your whole problem. The Bible is NOT the word of God anymore than my latest edition of Car & Driver magazine. The Bible is pure plaguerism. Jesus is a knockoff of Mithras, Bacchus, Dionysos. There is ZERO hard evidence of him ever walking the Earth. Don't you think that if someone like him who actually performed miracle after miracle, walked on water and raised the dead that SOMEONE would have actually have written that stuff down??? Yet, ZERO mention of him by ANYONE who actually lived during his lifetime. Mother Mary is an EXACT ripoff of the Isis myth. Wake up, actually READ the Bible. Really study it. The fact that it is a total crockola is all right there, in black and white. I would guess that you, like 98% of Christians has never actually done this. The only reason to believe that the Bible (after study) is anything other than the greatest hoax of all time is the irrational fear of the made up Hell. www.godvsthebible.com
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Post by elshamah on Jun 13, 2008 15:59:59 GMT
Elshamah, as you seem to like copying and pasting from websites here is some info you appear to have missed Just for you a message from the head of freemasonry to start with Here is a message from Freemasonry's top leader: Did you notice that there is NO MESSAGE above? It's not that there's a broken graphic or that your browser isn't working properly. It is because: No One Person (or Organization) speaks for all of Freemasonry!Freemasonry is a wide and diverse organization throughout the world. It's growth and development in each location has been responsive to the nation in which it exists and the makeup of its membership. Then the question comes up. To who's interest does each organisation serve : from the french lodge, it has been clear, one of their primary goal is to glorify the " GAODU " God. That this God is NOT the God of the bible, has been made clear . I will not do the work now, to check each freemason lodge of different countries, what and who's interest they serve. However, it has been made clear as well, that all the recommended organisations of the english lodge are in their essence satanic. The argument, that freemasonry is in its essence not religious, is therefore not accurate. might be, however, there exist a common ground and similarities, that can be clearly detected and be observed, and these all show to a same direction. Freemasonry is in its essence and nature evil and subversive, and the fact that it hides itself and its objectives, makes freemasonry even worse, even more dangerous. There is no doubt of this from my part, and of all, that are open minded and non-biased. to glorify the " GAODU " God however, is in my understanding a religious, actually , the highest religious purpose !! To glorify God is the sense of our life. That's why God made us, human kind. To glorfiy God, means, to re connect us with God. religion - religare - re connect us. Establish a connection, which had been separated. i cite from : www.emfj.org/mensclub.htmSuppose that a group of pagans got together and decided that they wanted to form a men’s club and each man independently decided that he wanted to start every meeting with a prayer to his demon god. They could all agree to this, but they would have a rough time selecting a name which all could embrace. Hindus would want to worship Vishnu, and of course, the men of other pagan religions would want to worship their demon god by the name they commonly use. They could not agree to use the name for the demon god of any one pagan religion without favoring one religion over another. Additionally, if they choose to use an obviously pagan name for the object of worship, they will have a hard time getting even immature Christians to join the club and join in worship with them. (And that is exactly what the demons would want.) If they choose a neutral name, such as the Sovereign Grand Creator of the Universe, and open all of their prayers in his name, all of the pagans can be satisfied. But are they now worshipping the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of the Bible? No, they are still worshipping demons. Now consider the situation if a Christian were to walk into a Hindu temple and take part in the worship service, assuming that he was worshipping Jesus, by joining in corporate prayer to Vishnu. Would the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob be willing to accept worship in this manner? The answer is found in Paul's first letter to the church at Corinth. Paul wrote: ". . . the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord’s table and the table of demons. Are we trying to arouse the Lord’s jealousy? Are we stronger than he?" 1 Corinthians 10:20-22 Now consider the situation if the Hindus agree to change the name which they use from Vishnu to Sovereign Grand Creator of the Universe. Even if they are able to agree to change the name that they use to identify their demon, elements of pagan worship rituals, such as circumambulation, remain. With a substitute name for the demon, would it then be acceptable for a Christian to participate in the Hindu ceremony of worship? What if the Hindus decide that when a man who calls himself a Christian officiates at the services, they will allow him to close prayers to Vishnu in Jesus' name. Would that make it "Christian?" If over time, the number of men who claimed to be Christians increased and the number of Hindus decreased, until finally there were no more men who professed to be Hindu taking part in the Hindu rituals of worship, would it then be "Christian?" How is this different from worship in the pagan men’s club? Of course, the men’s club would claim that their club is not a religion. Is the worship of demons through prayer made any less idolatrous by the claim that it is not a religion? These situations accurately model the worship which takes place in Masonic Lodges today. Freemasonry teaches that there is one God and men of all religions worship that one God using a variety of different names. In a Masonic Lodge, all join in corporate prayer to the Great Architect of the Universe, (GAOTU). Christopher Haffner wrote Workman Unashamed, The Testimony of a Christian Freemason. Haffner correctly espoused Masonic teaching when he wrote: "Now imagine me standing in lodge with my head bowed in prayer between Brother Mohammed Bokhary and Brother Arjun Melwani. To neither of them is the Great Architect of the Universe perceived as the Holy Trinity. To Brother Bokhary He has been revealed as Allah; to Brother Melwani He is probably perceived as Vishnu. Since I believe that there is only one God, I am confronted with three possibilities: They are praying to the devil whilst I am praying to God; They are praying to nothing, as their gods do not exist; They are praying to the same God as I, yet their understanding of His nature is partly incomplete (as indeed is mine--1 Cor 13:12) It is without hesitation that I accept the third possibility." (Workman Unashamed, p39) It is truly a shame that Haffner did not read and understand chapter 10 of 1st Corinthians. If he had, he would have understood that pagans worship demons, not God. Islam denies that Jesus Christ is the Unique Son of God. Rather, it declares that Jesus was only a prophet. Islamic doctrine declares that Allah, the god of Islam, does not have a son. Since the God of the Bible has a Son and Allah, the God of Islam, does not have a Son, Allah cannot be the God of the Bible. Furthermore, if Haffner had read and understood the book of 2nd John he would have understood that those who reject Jesus Christ and do not follow in His teachings do not have God. John wrote: Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds (2 John 9-11) With an understanding of this passage, it is possible to know that those who organized the paganism known as Freemasonry were not Christians. They were not continuing in the teaching of the Scriptures. Would Christians substitute the name GAOTU for God and do away with the name of Jesus so that pagans could join with them in prayer without being offended? No, Christians would have shared Jesus with the pagans so that they too might have salvation through faith in Him. It is true that there is one God. However, all men, specifically pagans, do not worship that one God. The worshippers of Baal learned the truth on Mt. Carmel. Baal is not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Judgment was swift on Mt. Carmel. (See 1 Kings 18:20-40.) The god of Freemasonry, the GAOTU, is also not the God of the Bible. Will God judge Masons who do not repent and continue to worship the GAOTU any differently than he judged the worshippers of Baal? Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Cor 6:9-10) What will Jesus tell the Mason who claims to be a Christian? Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Matthew 7:21-23 By joining in pagan worship ceremonies, WE sinned against God. When we realized that the GAOTU was not the God of the Bible, we claimed the promise found in John's first letter: This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin. If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If you are a Christian who has become ensnared in Freemasonry, we urge you to confess your involvement in Freemasonry as sin and renounce, as we have. Jesus wants to forgive you, but his forgiveness is dependant on your confession and repentance.
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Post by elshamah on Jun 13, 2008 16:01:25 GMT
I DO know, because the bible, the word of God, tells me. God does make the transformation of men through his holy spirit. ONLY. Not trough any human organisation, not through rites , and anything else. Right there, that Angelo is your whole problem. The Bible is NOT the word of God anymore than my latest edition of Car & Driver magazine. The Bible is pure plaguerism. Jesus is a knockoff of Mithras, Bacchus, Dionysos. There is ZERO hard evidence of him ever walking the Earth. Don't you think that if someone like him who actually performed miracle after miracle, walked on water and raised the dead that SOMEONE would have actually have written that stuff down??? Yet, ZERO mention of him by ANYONE who actually lived during his lifetime. Mother Mary is an EXACT ripoff of the Isis myth. Wake up, actually READ the Bible. Really study it. The fact that it is a total crockola is all right there, in black and white. I would guess that you, like 98% of Christians has never actually done this. The only reason to believe that the Bible (after study) is anything other than the greatest hoax of all time is the irrational fear of the made up Hell. www.godvsthebible.comhonestly ? I don't have much to say to freemasons, that are not Christians. To them, all i have to say, is senseless anyway.
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Post by thevoiceofreason on Jun 13, 2008 16:13:09 GMT
Right there, that Angelo is your whole problem. The Bible is NOT the word of God anymore than my latest edition of Car & Driver magazine. The Bible is pure plaguerism. Jesus is a knockoff of Mithras, Bacchus, Dionysos. There is ZERO hard evidence of him ever walking the Earth. Don't you think that if someone like him who actually performed miracle after miracle, walked on water and raised the dead that SOMEONE would have actually have written that stuff down??? Yet, ZERO mention of him by ANYONE who actually lived during his lifetime. Mother Mary is an EXACT ripoff of the Isis myth. Wake up, actually READ the Bible. Really study it. The fact that it is a total crockola is all right there, in black and white. I would guess that you, like 98% of Christians has never actually done this. The only reason to believe that the Bible (after study) is anything other than the greatest hoax of all time is the irrational fear of the made up Hell. www.godvsthebible.comhonestly ? I don't have much to say to freemasons, that are not Christians. To them, all i have to say, is senseless anyway. You fear Reason. And with that you reject God because that is God's true gift to man. You fear the use of your own brain, and that is sad because you have allowed yourself to be poisoned by superstition and fear. You use your ignorance as a battering ram against your fellow man. You are walking blindly in the deep fog of faith and relish the retardation of irrationality. www.godvsthebible.com
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Post by thevoiceofreason on Jun 13, 2008 16:15:39 GMT
Elshamah, as you seem to like copying and pasting from websites here is some info you appear to have missed Just for you a message from the head of freemasonry to start with Here is a message from Freemasonry's top leader: Did you notice that there is NO MESSAGE above? It's not that there's a broken graphic or that your browser isn't working properly. It is because: No One Person (or Organization) speaks for all of Freemasonry!Freemasonry is a wide and diverse organization throughout the world. It's growth and development in each location has been responsive to the nation in which it exists and the makeup of its membership. Then the question comes up. To who's interest does each organisation serve : from the french lodge, it has been clear, one of their primary goal is to glorify the " GAODU " God. That this God is NOT the God of the bible, has been made clear . I will not do the work now, to check each freemason lodge of different countries, what and who's interest they serve. However, it has been made clear as well, that all the recommended organisations of the english lodge are in their essence satanic. The argument, that freemasonry is in its essence not religious, is therefore not accurate. might be, however, there exist a common ground and similarities, that can be clearly detected and be observed, and these all show to a same direction. Freemasonry is in its essence and nature evil and subversive, and the fact that it hides itself and its objectives, makes freemasonry even worse, even more dangerous. There is no doubt of this from my part, and of all, that are open minded and non-biased. to glorify the " GAODU " God however, is in my understanding a religious, actually , the highest religious purpose !! To glorify God is the sense of our life. That's why God made us, human kind. To glorfiy God, means, to re connect us with God. religion - religare - re connect us. Establish a connection, which had been separated. i cite from : www.emfj.org/mensclub.htmSuppose that a group of pagans got together and decided that they wanted to form a men’s club and each man independently decided that he wanted to start every meeting with a prayer to his demon god. They could all agree to this, but they would have a rough time selecting a name which all could embrace. Hindus would want to worship Vishnu, and of course, the men of other pagan religions would want to worship their demon god by the name they commonly use. They could not agree to use the name for the demon god of any one pagan religion without favoring one religion over another. Additionally, if they choose to use an obviously pagan name for the object of worship, they will have a hard time getting even immature Christians to join the club and join in worship with them. (And that is exactly what the demons would want.) If they choose a neutral name, such as the Sovereign Grand Creator of the Universe, and open all of their prayers in his name, all of the pagans can be satisfied. But are they now worshipping the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of the Bible? No, they are still worshipping demons. Now consider the situation if a Christian were to walk into a Hindu temple and take part in the worship service, assuming that he was worshipping Jesus, by joining in corporate prayer to Vishnu. Would the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob be willing to accept worship in this manner? The answer is found in Paul's first letter to the church at Corinth. Paul wrote: ". . . the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord’s table and the table of demons. Are we trying to arouse the Lord’s jealousy? Are we stronger than he?" 1 Corinthians 10:20-22 Now consider the situation if the Hindus agree to change the name which they use from Vishnu to Sovereign Grand Creator of the Universe. Even if they are able to agree to change the name that they use to identify their demon, elements of pagan worship rituals, such as circumambulation, remain. With a substitute name for the demon, would it then be acceptable for a Christian to participate in the Hindu ceremony of worship? What if the Hindus decide that when a man who calls himself a Christian officiates at the services, they will allow him to close prayers to Vishnu in Jesus' name. Would that make it "Christian?" If over time, the number of men who claimed to be Christians increased and the number of Hindus decreased, until finally there were no more men who professed to be Hindu taking part in the Hindu rituals of worship, would it then be "Christian?" How is this different from worship in the pagan men’s club? Of course, the men’s club would claim that their club is not a religion. Is the worship of demons through prayer made any less idolatrous by the claim that it is not a religion? These situations accurately model the worship which takes place in Masonic Lodges today. Freemasonry teaches that there is one God and men of all religions worship that one God using a variety of different names. In a Masonic Lodge, all join in corporate prayer to the Great Architect of the Universe, (GAOTU). Christopher Haffner wrote Workman Unashamed, The Testimony of a Christian Freemason. Haffner correctly espoused Masonic teaching when he wrote: "Now imagine me standing in lodge with my head bowed in prayer between Brother Mohammed Bokhary and Brother Arjun Melwani. To neither of them is the Great Architect of the Universe perceived as the Holy Trinity. To Brother Bokhary He has been revealed as Allah; to Brother Melwani He is probably perceived as Vishnu. Since I believe that there is only one God, I am confronted with three possibilities: They are praying to the devil whilst I am praying to God; They are praying to nothing, as their gods do not exist; They are praying to the same God as I, yet their understanding of His nature is partly incomplete (as indeed is mine--1 Cor 13:12) It is without hesitation that I accept the third possibility." (Workman Unashamed, p39) It is truly a shame that Haffner did not read and understand chapter 10 of 1st Corinthians. If he had, he would have understood that pagans worship demons, not God. Islam denies that Jesus Christ is the Unique Son of God. Rather, it declares that Jesus was only a prophet. Islamic doctrine declares that Allah, the god of Islam, does not have a son. Since the God of the Bible has a Son and Allah, the God of Islam, does not have a Son, Allah cannot be the God of the Bible. Furthermore, if Haffner had read and understood the book of 2nd John he would have understood that those who reject Jesus Christ and do not follow in His teachings do not have God. John wrote: Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds (2 John 9-11) With an understanding of this passage, it is possible to know that those who organized the paganism known as Freemasonry were not Christians. They were not continuing in the teaching of the Scriptures. Would Christians substitute the name GAOTU for God and do away with the name of Jesus so that pagans could join with them in prayer without being offended? No, Christians would have shared Jesus with the pagans so that they too might have salvation through faith in Him. It is true that there is one God. However, all men, specifically pagans, do not worship that one God. The worshippers of Baal learned the truth on Mt. Carmel. Baal is not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Judgment was swift on Mt. Carmel. (See 1 Kings 18:20-40.) The god of Freemasonry, the GAOTU, is also not the God of the Bible. Will God judge Masons who do not repent and continue to worship the GAOTU any differently than he judged the worshippers of Baal? Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Cor 6:9-10) What will Jesus tell the Mason who claims to be a Christian? Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Matthew 7:21-23 By joining in pagan worship ceremonies, WE sinned against God. When we realized that the GAOTU was not the God of the Bible, we claimed the promise found in John's first letter: This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin. If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If you are a Christian who has become ensnared in Freemasonry, we urge you to confess your involvement in Freemasonry as sin and renounce, as we have. Jesus wants to forgive you, but his forgiveness is dependant on your confession and repentance. Jesus can't forgive crap, he is made up! A simple control device used by the Church to enslave the masses. Study your Bible, it's a hoax. It is all right there. www.godvsthebible.com
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imakegarb
Member
One wee, sleeket, cowran, tim'rous beastie
Posts: 3,573
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Post by imakegarb on Jun 13, 2008 16:45:47 GMT
Voice of Reason, I know there's a real temptation to get all hot and bothered about all this but please do subdue that passion a bit. Recall there are many Christians in this world and they would take offense in seeing their holy book and founder referred to as "crap" and "a hoax". They've done us no harm. And, quite frankly, I doubt these folks who are posting under the login Elshamah would think much of them anyway. For the collective of Elshamah clearly do not practice monotheism (they appear to be more henotheistic), which places them well outside the pale of Christianity. So going after true Christians to get at this particular group who are not Christians is a bit like napalming a forest. The innocent suffer with the guilty. And that ain't cool. Further, doing so violates our policies here. I know you did it in the heat of passion, so I'm not issuing you a warning or any such thing. I'm just asking you to keep your conduct within due bounds, show yourself the better person and to not give in to the very real temptation here. Everyone, we are approaching 42 pages now. And, so far, no one has lost their temper or gone far over the edge. Your conduct here has been exemplary. AntiMasons like to be provocative and get Masons to lose their temper so they can return to their own more tightly controlled forums and say, "See what those Freemasons are really like?" I'm very proud of all of you.
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Post by thevoiceofreason on Jun 13, 2008 16:51:29 GMT
Thanks imakegarb. It was in the heat of passion. I should restrain myself. The fact is I want all Christians to really study thier Bible's. Really examine those workings and then be truthful with themselves. www.godvsthebible.com
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imakegarb
Member
One wee, sleeket, cowran, tim'rous beastie
Posts: 3,573
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Post by imakegarb on Jun 13, 2008 16:52:43 GMT
(Bro. Karen pokes her head out from under Ma'at's table)Does the number "777" have any significance? Lucky, lucky, lucky Oh, and I seem to have missed a post somewhere. What is "MOAFG"?
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Post by billmcelligott on Jun 13, 2008 16:54:14 GMT
Exactly and how do you know he does not use Freemasonry. You do not know, because by your own doctrine , only God can do this. The only way you could know , was if you were privy to Gods conduct. Matthew 13 The Parable of the Sower 1That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat by the lake. 2Such large crowds gathered around him that he got into a boat and sat in it, while all the people stood on the shore. 3Then he told them many things in parables, saying: "A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. 8Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. 9He who has ears, let him hear." 10The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?" 11He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 13This is why I speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. 14In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: " 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. 15For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.' 16But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. 17For I tell you the truth, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.
I DO know, because the bible, the word of God, tells me. God does make the transformation of men through his holy spirit. ONLY. Not trough any human organisation, not through rites , and anything else.
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Let us now elshamah rely on pure logic, if you are correct and only the will of god determines which person is a Christian and which is not and no other event makes any difference, why did Jesus bother to talk to the people, why did he use parables to make the complicated easier to understand.
Because Freemasonry is just a parable. Parables based upon a living theatre of the Holy Bible.
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imakegarb
Member
One wee, sleeket, cowran, tim'rous beastie
Posts: 3,573
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Post by imakegarb on Jun 13, 2008 16:55:34 GMT
Thanks imakegarb. It was in the heat of passion. I should restrain myself. The fact is I want all Christians to really study thier Bible's. Really examine those workings and then be truthful with themselves. www.godvsthebible.comThis is a worthy sentiment and, yes, it's an excellent book to study. One of many Volumes of Sacred Lore that Freemasons are encouraged to study. Thank you for reminding us of that
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Post by thevoiceofreason on Jun 13, 2008 17:13:53 GMT
Questions for Masonic Christians. 1.) Why do you think it is that there is no Gospel According To Jesus? If his message is so important that if we do not believe in it we will swim in a lake of fire for eternity (pretty damned important), don't you think we should have gotten it from the source? Especially considering how all of the Gospels contridict one another. 2.) Why do you think there is zero historical evidence of Jesus physical existence on planet Earth? After all he performed at least 20 miracles. Including restoring sight to a blind man and raising a dead one. Yet no scribe at that time ever thought to write any of this down? 3.) If John the Baptist really baptised Christ and declared him the true messiah as the synoptic gospels say then why did his cult (the Mandeans) continue? Dont you think he would have desolved it and his worshipers would have then become Christian? 4.) How do we with a rational argument explain that if Herrod had all of the baby boys killed on the fear of the birth of Jesus, no historical record of that atrocity exists? Thank you for your time. www.godvsthebible.com
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