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Post by elshamah on Jun 13, 2008 17:18:48 GMT
Voice of Reason, I know there's a real temptation to get all hot and bothered about all this but please do subdue that passion a bit. Recall there are many Christians in this world and they would take offense in seeing their holy book and founder referred to as "crap" and "a hoax". They've done us no harm. And, quite frankly, I doubt these folks who are posting under the login Elshamah would think much of them anyway. For the collective of Elshamah clearly do not practice monotheism (they appear to be more henotheistic), which places them well outside the pale of Christianity. So going after true Christians to get at this particular group who are not Christians is a bit like napalming a forest. The innocent suffer with the guilty. And that ain't cool. Further, doing so violates our policies here. I know you did it in the heat of passion, so I'm not issuing you a warning or any such thing. I'm just asking you to keep your conduct within due bounds, show yourself the better person and to not give in to the very real temptation here. Everyone, we are approaching 42 pages now. And, so far, no one has lost their temper or gone far over the edge. Your conduct here has been exemplary. AntiMasons like to be provocative and get Masons to lose their temper so they can return to their own more tightly controlled forums and say, "See what those Freemasons are really like?" I'm very proud of all of you. Just to clarify one more time. There is not more than one writer . i am the only person to write at this thread. Angelo
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Post by elshamah on Jun 13, 2008 17:20:17 GMT
Thanks imakegarb. It was in the heat of passion. I should restrain myself. The fact is I want all Christians to really study thier Bible's. Really examine those workings and then be truthful with themselves. www.godvsthebible.comHave you studied the bible ? Have you read it , from the first, to the last page ? have you taken time to understand, what actually many things really mean ?
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Post by elshamah on Jun 13, 2008 17:25:32 GMT
-------------------------------- Let us now elshamah rely on pure logic, if you are correct and only the will of god determines which person is a Christian and which is not and no other event makes any difference, why did Jesus bother to talk to the people, why did he use parables to make the complicated easier to understand. Because Freemasonry is just a parable. Parables based upon a living theatre of the Holy Bible. God has offered his mercy, his love, his forgiveness , and eternal life, to all mankind. Nobody is excluded. It relies on us, now, to respond to this offer. So you, i, we , not God, determine now, take the decision, to obey and follow Jesus Christ, and recieve his blessings, or not. God gave us a free will, and we can use it. So based on our decision, we can become christians, or remain not. Jesus actually used parables , so that the masses would NOT understand, and revealed only to his disciples the real meaning of the parables. Today however, we have the holy Ghost, who introduces us to all truth.
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Post by thevoiceofreason on Jun 13, 2008 17:26:18 GMT
Thanks imakegarb. It was in the heat of passion. I should restrain myself. The fact is I want all Christians to really study thier Bible's. Really examine those workings and then be truthful with themselves. www.godvsthebible.comHave you studied the bible ? Have you read it , from the first, to the last page ? have you taken time to understand, what actually many things really mean ? Yes I have. I spent six years dedicated to intense Bible study. The result is I now reject it as very poorly written fiction. A knockoff of other myth. At first I was crushed by this (as a lifelong devout Christian), then I was liberated. "Extraordinary claimes require extraordinary evidence." -Carl Sagan There remains ZERO historical evidence to the existence of Jesus Christ. I see no reason to believe in the Bible as it is written. www.godvsthebible.com
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Post by thevoiceofreason on Jun 13, 2008 17:37:34 GMT
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Post by thevoiceofreason on Jun 13, 2008 18:48:42 GMT
Jesus can't forgive crap, he is made up! A simple control device used by the Church to enslave the masses. Study your Bible, it's a hoax. It is all right there. Brother VOR, Please use your rational mind to view such writings are sources of wisdom for those who require or desire metaphor to glean such things. In this sense, it is not what you claim. Yes, it can be as you say for those who do not use it as such. For those of us who do [view it as a rich resource of wisdom in the form of metaphor], what you say is not rational. I come from a rich engineering background. I use math to test designs. Without the irrational and unreal that math allows for, problems that require good engineering principles cannot be solved. They require the unreal and irrational to gain insight into how circuits and designs will and won't work. If I did not have a deep understanding of the irrational and unreal, I would not be able to design and build that which you view as real. I would also be missing out on a lot of things that G-d has to offer. One of these being a rich resource of symbols that help convey wisdom to those of us who seek them. No matter how they are labeled, if used with skill, they too can help add to what life has to offer us and actually help understand why things work and don't work the way that they do. P Brother, you have a gift for the romantic, I will give you that The facts of the case remain however. If Jesus did walk the Earth, we would have historical evidence, we don't. He did not exist. If the Bible is pure metaphor in your view, I would say that would be the vast minority of "Christians" as that would not make you a worshiper of Jesus Christ. Metaphors afterall are hard to worship The Bible as a morality base is also lacking. I would suggest Aesop's Fables as a better resource for that. www.godvsthebible.com
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Post by billmcelligott on Jun 13, 2008 19:37:00 GMT
God has offered his mercy, his love, his forgiveness , and eternal life, to all mankind. Nobody is excluded. It relies on us, now, to respond to this offer. So you, i, we , not God, determine now, take the decision, to obey and follow Jesus Christ, and recieve his blessings, or not. God gave us a free will, and we can use it. So based on our decision, we can become christians, or remain not. Jesus actually used parables , so that the masses would NOT understand, and revealed only to his disciples the real meaning of the parables. Today however, we have the holy Ghost, who introduces us to all truth. So, let me see if I have this right, Jesus speaks to the people so they do not understand what he says. but only the disciples are to understand what he says, so why bother telling the people in the first place? The only people then that understand what Jesus has said are the disciples. So how does anyone ever find out what is happening, there is no logic in what you have said at all. Then we have the introduction of the Holy Ghost who you say sorts it all out now. It seems to me that the only truth you have is that which you evangelise. It is based on nothing but your interpretation of your faith that is designed to keep you and your fellow fundy's at the top of the totem pole. I have seen nothing in what you have written that looks toward the comfort of your fellow creature or that would benefit your fellow man. In short as far as your faith goes you are selfish, prideful and arrogant in the face of specific facts that are placed before you. You ignore the facts you do not have an answer for and labor one theme and one theme only , 'i am a born again, evangelical christian' and i know more than any of you. You purport to know the will of God, that in itself is blasphemy. Now I do not wish to have everlasting life, if God says I will have it so be it, but it is not something that I hope for or need. I am not worthy of any special treatment and I am no more important than any other creature on this earth. I have a love for God that requires nothing in return, it is unconditional. It has nothing to do with Freemasonry, however being a Freemason has strengthened my resolve. In the same way as being a good bricklayer would make me a better builder. Logic is the path to truth and 'the Truth will out'.
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Post by elshamah on Jun 13, 2008 19:42:04 GMT
Have you studied the bible ? Have you read it , from the first, to the last page ? have you taken time to understand, what actually many things really mean ? Yes I have. I spent six years dedicated to intense Bible study. The result is I now reject it as very poorly written fiction. A knockoff of other myth. At first I was crushed by this (as a lifelong devout Christian), then I was liberated. "Extraordinary claimes require extraordinary evidence." -Carl Sagan There remains ZERO historical evidence to the existence of Jesus Christ. I see no reason to believe in the Bible as it is written. www.godvsthebible.comSees, who want to see : www.westarkchurchofchrist.org/library/extrabiblical.htm
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Post by thevoiceofreason on Jun 13, 2008 20:39:11 GMT
Brother, you have a gift for the romantic, I will give you that The facts of the case remain however. If Jesus did walk the Earth, we would have historical evidence, we don't. He did not exist. If the Bible is pure metaphor in your view, I would say that would be the vast minority of "Christians" as that would not make you a worshiper of Jesus Christ. Metaphors afterall are hard to worship The Bible as a morality base is also lacking. I would suggest Aesop's Fables as a better resource for that. Yes Brother, I do have that gift. I stand, or sit, accused forthright and with accuracy. As I read the Bible, I was able to see how symbols were being used far beyond the story base that most people read it at. I agree that many do not have the capacity to do this. They are "lost in the metaphor" so to speak. I do not condemn the Bible nor those who use it to enslave those who are literal in reading it. I merely understand that there are those who will never be able to see things as I do and it is not the Bible's fault, nor is it due to a flaw in the Bible. These people do this with EVERYTHING in their lives, not just the Bible. The case you present is focused on the wrong accused. "Jesus" as "Christ" symbolic, still "walks" the earth to this day, but most people will never be able to see this symbol. They are looking for something basic. They want to hear someone shout, "Look Martha, that's Him, right there, walking on the water and kicking those poor seagulls" before they believe the Christ symbol is before them. To see, one must be "capable of" and actually transcend their thinking and hence "spirit" into the symbolic realm. In this respect, Christ cannot not exist. The instant a person can conceive of such symbol is the instant that the actual symbol starts its existence in that person's awareness. The problem lies more in the recognition and application of this symbol in our daily lives. This is where many fall short. As far as worship is concerned, all that any person CAN worship is metaphor. We are symbolic creatures. We use symbols to communicate. We use them to refer to people, places, things, situations and even to those things that actually transcend time and space such as concepts like hope, truth, love, trust and "G-d." What makes mankind unique in G-d's creation is the "Word" which is "Symbol." Symbols are metaphors. They are the road map. They are not the territory. These maps are all that anyone can possibly "worship." Even when people think they have the territory before them, it is only what they think is the territory and hence it is the internal map that they are truly dealing with. People worship these metaphors not all the time but every time! They just think that the metaphors are real. You and I will never convince people otherwise. They have to come to this understanding themselves. Oddly enough, once a person can transcend this and get through the illusion, the upshot is counterintuitive. The fact that they are not real is no longer at issue and they actually become "more" real because the symbol is now understiood for what it is. As far as a morality base, the Bible lacks if you have no wisdom to look at it from the standpoint that it is a book conveying a maturing understanding of one people's growing understanding of the concept of G-d. It also is lacking if you believe that all there is to know to mature one's understanding of G-d is in it. How do I arrive at these last conclusions? The "Word" is Everything that has ever been or will be created, written, thought and exist. That is the nature of Symbol.To get lost in the metaphor that the book one holds in one's hand is the All, when merely looking around one can clearly see that one is a truly small part of The Actual True Book, one's conclusions will always fall short of the mark. P What you have done is create your own religion. It is a very smug one but the technique is very simple. I think you understand that the Bible is historiclly innaccurate and rationally absurd. To compensate for this you explain it all away buy it being all just metaphor instead of the realition of actual events. I suspect this view would put you at odd with Christians who believe that Jesus was a real guy, God in the flesh. Again, if and it is a huge if the Bible was intended to be strictly symbolic methaphor it is a poor example of that art. Aesops Fable's are much better, as would Granny Goose. www.godvsthebible.com I am glad it works for you.
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Post by thevoiceofreason on Jun 13, 2008 22:47:52 GMT
What you have done is create your own religion. That is but one way of understanding or rationalizing how you perceive what I do. You sure do have a really depreciating tone about you TVOR. What I do understand is that you are using a word "smug" in a very irrational way. This is at odds with your professed belief. What's even more odd is that you fail to see how irrational you are. This is understandable though for you profess that you are rational and therefore you really THINK that you are what you profess -- rational in the way your think and act. You are not and do not. This is a common technique used to delude those who think that they are rational. Quite understandable though. Your projection on me is typical of such techniques too. As far as any technique that you might irrationally project on me, simplicity is key to many things. People try to complicate things that are really not that complicated. But then again, it is complexity that often catalyzes simplicity. This is why you tried to simplify your projection on me. What you think is inaccurate and irrational. You assume much, this is irrational too. I ask you to try not to delude yourself on this and other matters. I do not look at and judge the Bible as historical in the sense of physically recorded history done by a cast of reporters and news crews that only had paper to write upon. (The fact of the matter is, much of written history is always shaped by the subjective intentions of those reportng it!) I view the Bible as historical in the sense that it shows a progression of a specific group of people's understanding of their experience of G-d using the best language and metaphors of the day that it was recorded. Much like any diary or subjective collective account would. As far as the Bible being rationally absurd: It's a continuous parable conveying parables in the form of metaphors that convey wisdom to those who seek it. I see and seek in this way. Much wisdom can be gleaned from this way of seeing.For those who do not seek wisdom in this way, it would indeed appear as you say. I can take it that you do not see and seek wisdom as I do. Too each his own path. My gain; your loss. I do not explain anything away. It is the way I understand it. I tried to share this with you. You don't appreciate what I shared. You see no value in it; I still do. I find it ironically that you would project such irrationallity on me though. This action of yours is not rational. It is illogical. Mr. Spock would dress you down for this. You can believe all the irrational things you want. It's your fantasy. Enjoy it as you can. May you find peace with it. I have never felt compelled to be even. "Odd-ness" suits me quite well. I find great value in it. BTW - symbolically, we are all "G-d in the flesh." But that is another thread... Ah! Every one's a critic. Beauty is indeed in the eyes of the beholder. ;D This reminds me of the time when I first saw a painting by Picasso -- a WWII theme with a horse and other military things in it. At first I thought it was nonsense and dismissed it as trash. Many years later a teacher started pointing out some of the symbols in the picture. He explained what the symbols meant and where they came from. After a while I started viewing that piece of trash as something new and wonderful. It came alive and I was able to understand what it conveyed. That day my life was transformed. I started looking at other things that I used to dismiss. I started to see the symbols that used to mean less than nothing to me. I say less than for I used a lot of my energy to attack what others valued and I did not. That behavior and mindset changed that day. You have yet to see the world symbolically; you may never. I feel sadness for the loss that you don't even realize is occurring for you. I am glad it works for you. Thanks Brother. I hope that you mean this and that it is not just a way to dismiss what I value and you don't. I sure hope you did not dislocate your shoulder patting yourself on the back. www.godvsthebible.com
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Jun 13, 2008 22:59:24 GMT
That day my life was transformed. I started looking at other things that I used to dismiss. I started to see the symbols that used to mean less than nothing to me. I say less than for I used a lot of my energy to attack what others valued and I did not. Well said Bro. P., Christianity is a matter of perspective. One who does not look at the world from the Christian perspective is quite rational, even quite right, to look around at all the problems and strife and exclaim, 'What nonsense! How can there have been a redeemer, when the world is so obviously unredeemed? Truly, we are alone, it matters not what I do.' Whereas, one who looks at the world from a Christian perspective is quite rational, even quite right, to look around at those same problems and strife and exclaim, 'How wonderful, The Redeemer has arrived, the work has begun! Truly, I can share in that work, I can make a difference!'
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Jun 13, 2008 23:47:12 GMT
And thanks back at you.
Your key word was 'transformed.' Whether the story is historically accurate or not, Christians believe that Jesus came and fulfilled the law. As has been pointed out, his story was far from unique. However, as in the case of Mithra, from whence we derive the term 'myth,' it had been a case of conscious, albeit constructive, fabrication or of looking forward to a Redeemer. If Christianity consists of no more than people who have decided to live their lives as if the Redeemer had arrived and to act as if, when two or more of them are gathered in his name, that S/He is also there, then it is a supremely precious 'pretense,' which fulfills itself. Yes Virginia, there is a Christ!
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Post by maximus on Jun 14, 2008 0:41:24 GMT
Together we gather in groups hither and yon,
greater and smaller,
King and begger alike,
one in purpose,
diverse in method,
united in the embrace of the All.
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Post by hollandr on Jun 14, 2008 0:57:48 GMT
Angelo
I wonder if you would like to discuss the following psalm
Psalms 82:6 Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. 7 But ye shall die like men
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Post by AndyF on Jun 14, 2008 1:50:24 GMT
Update:
Pike count: 8 God of freemasonry count: 15
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Post by bluebeard on Jun 14, 2008 1:51:03 GMT
Angelo I wonder if you would like to discuss the following psalm Psalms 82:6 Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. 7 But ye shall die like men If they don't have any interest, I certainly do! ;D Ok, lets hear it. BTW, I really enjoyed your interpretations so far
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Post by elshamah on Jun 14, 2008 1:53:32 GMT
Angelo I wonder if you would like to discuss the following psalm Psalms 82:6 Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. 7 But ye shall die like men yes , shure. i leave it to you to start.
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Post by AndyF on Jun 14, 2008 1:59:17 GMT
Angelo I wonder if you would like to discuss the following psalm Psalms 82:6 Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. 7 But ye shall die like men yes , shure. i leave it to you to start. You're the one here to testify your faith.
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Post by maximus on Jun 14, 2008 2:25:30 GMT
yes , shure. i leave it to you to start. You're the one here to testify your faith. The Borg want's him to go first so it can attack what he writes. The collective has no individuality.
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Post by hollandr on Jun 14, 2008 3:27:56 GMT
>i leave it to you to start.
Angelo
Earlier in this thread when I provided some interesting verses you explained that:
- I was blaspheming - I needed to read lots of "versicals" and learn how to interpret.
But you did not show how that would work
Perhaps you would be so kind as to demonstrate with this short verse.
I repeat it here for your convenience and because I love reading it
Psalms 82:6 Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. 7 But ye shall die like men
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