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Post by marcopolo on Jun 8, 2008 14:55:22 GMT
Angelo, Please stick with the responses I gave you earlier. Remember? When I showed the various (and awful) beliefs within our own evangelical faith? I think you are starting to get the idea when you aks, "OK, what are some "universal" beliefs." Well, I would dare say there are none, just like there are not even in our evangelical faith. I would say the VAST majority believe in Friendship, Charity, and Brotherly Love. There will, of course, be some who do not. Again, even within our evangelical CHRISTIAN faith, theologians still debate aspects of CHRIST himself.. the very cornerstone of our faith! Again, please don't skip over the fact that there isn't a single governing body for Freemasonry. I live in Texas. Texas lodges are governed by the Grand Lodge of Texas. As such, we can pass any rules/regulations we see fit. However, if it were too wild in our rules, we would probably no longer be accepted by, say, the Grand Lodge of New York and their individual Lodges. In fact, before I visit a lodge in another state, it is incumbent upon me to ensure that the lodge I wish to visit is "recognized" by the Grand Lodge of Texas. Not very "universal", huh? The same in our evangelical circle. There is no single governing body, but many various governing bodies. There are differences between, say, The Assemblies of God and The Southern Baptist Convention. However, we can meet together on our shared Christian faith. Do we not meet in community outreach programs with Baptists because they are not "pentecostal"? Do we not meet with Calvinists because of their views on predestination? Of course not. Now, would I meet with people like the Westboro Baptist Church, who carry the "God Hates Fags" "When Fags Die, God Laughs" signs? No, probably not as they are WAY outside of what is considered orthodox evangelical belief. Get it? The same is true in Masonry. We all meet upon the constructs of Friendship, Morality, Charity, and Brotherly Love. You can see from this thread why we do not discuss religion or politics. The moral concepts we agree to share (and which comprise probably 90% of the "secret" oath we take) are (in less formal language): To treat each other with respect and as equals. That we will protect the chastity and honor of women, that we will not allow our difference to spiral into contentiousness or brawling, that we will not steal from each other, that we will not gossip or spread lies about each other. That's really it. The only "secret" part are methods of recognizing each other as Masons. (And the reason those methods of recognition are kept secret, ctually more PRIVATE than SECRET, I have already explained once and it is in the paper, which I wrote, which I posted the link to... I'm quite sure that your ATM/Credit/Cash Card (Sorry, not sure what they are called where you live) has a PIN (4 digit security code). Why? Why would you have a "secret"? Well, it's a "secret" method of recognition between you and your bank. Why? So others cannot take advantage of the relationship of trust between you and your bank. You agreed to give them your money, and they agree to keep it safe for you to use. Same with Masonry. I have promised to do whatever I can to help a brother Mason. He has promised to respect that promise and not take advantage of it. Without being able to know FOR SURE that we are both Masons, that system doesn't work. That is why, you can walk into any bank in the world, and get cash from your card. That is why a Mason from virtually anywhere in the world can approach me here in Texas, and know that I will take him into my home and know that I will give him a room in my house and a place at my table. That's it. THAT is the whole of the "spooky secrets" of the Freemasons. It wouldn't make for a very interesting book or documentary, would it? Maybe that's why the nonsense is so easy to believe. It's a much better story! So to answer your specific questions: Q: "well, i guess freemasonry as a organisation should have a opinion, a credo, in regard of this question. that's what i want to know, not individual opinions." A: You've discovered one of the truths yourself. There aren't dogmatic credos. We are free to think for ourselves. While we have some agreed upon principals (which I listed above) all we have, truly, are our individual opinions. (That should be obvious from this very post!)  Q: "ok. so i would like to know, what are the key points, that hold freemasonry all together. Points, that are of common agreement of all lodges and members ? a set of roles, or symbols and their meanings, something , that all lodges and members believe without exception ?" A: I think I've answered that above. There are key CONCEPTS (Friendship, Brotherly Love, Charity) obviously, there is HUGE room for interpretation on what these things mean (as you have seen here). Again, you are seeing this from the viewpoint of a dogmatic religion. THIS is what we believe. This is what we tell YOU to believe. Masonry doesn't operate that way. Short answer, there aren't any. (FYI, they don't exist even in our evangelical faith. We could argue all day about what "universal" concepts are in Christianity. Even what you would assume to be "core/agreed upon principals" are argued; Divinity of Christ? Humanity of Christ? Christ's role in the Trinity? etc. etc.) |
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Post by billmcelligott on Jun 8, 2008 15:03:52 GMT
Angelo, I'll have to apologize up front if I offend you by this comment, but I feel a need to point out that I cannot help but notice a similarity between what you are doing on this thread and the fallen angel, Lucifer. Was not his purpose to go around testing people? It seems to me that is what you are doing to us. Aaargh well that is not as clear cut, I apologise to those whi have heard all this before, but it is an interesting point. Freemasonry being called Satanic in nature:- In Latin, the word "Lucifer", meaning "Light-Bringer" (from lux, lucis, "light", and ferre, "to bear, bring"), is a name for the "Morning Star". Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! but then we read on and we hear 13For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. Then instead of what seems to be an angel cut down thrown from Heaven it seems to be of a man who has placed himself above God. Then we get a further clue 22For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD. So there is a good section of Historians that say Lucifer is The King of Babylon and that even this term Lucifer was a miss interpretation from the Vulgate, beacuse the true 'Light Bringer' is of course the Christ. The morning star has a couple of references: Revelation 2: 27'He will rule them with an iron scepter; he will dash them to pieces like pottery' — just as I have received authority from my Father. 28I will also give him the morning star. 29He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. Revelation 22: 16"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."
2 Peter 1: 19And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.
The term Satan appears in the Bible numerous times and is described as the leader of the evil ones. 'Beelzebub'
But let us remember the factoid I placed here a few posts ago.
A Freemason must agree to believe in a 'Supreme Being', not the being that is 5 or 6 on the ladder, Supreme is the word chosen and agreed to. The top Honcho.
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Post by droche on Jun 8, 2008 15:26:09 GMT
Bill, that is very enlightening, the fact that Lucifer may have been a man that put himself above God. I will apologise if my post seemed to indicate a similarity between Freemasonry and Satan; that was the furthest thing from my mind. My only point was to point out a similarity between what I have read about Lucifer, which admittedly does not go into great depth, and what is occurring here with Masonry being put on the defensive.
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Post by alchymicalmason on Jun 8, 2008 15:45:20 GMT
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Are you SERIOUS? yes. Might I suggest you do your homework and form some original thoughts before you post on this site? It just might make you a little more credible. |
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Post by elshamah on Jun 8, 2008 18:05:05 GMT
Just as CHRISTIANITY is not ONE ORGANIZATION, FREEMASONRY is not ONE ORGANIZATION. but christianity has a solid base, the bible. what base does masonry have ? but christianity has one basic belief : We believe in Jesus Christ. He does unit us all. what does make you feel, that i do not act in a rational and honoring way ? |
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Post by elshamah on Jun 8, 2008 18:08:53 GMT
Angelo, I'll have to apologize up front if I offend you by this comment, but I feel a need to point out that I cannot help but notice a similarity between what you are doing on this thread and the fallen angel, Lucifer. Was not his purpose to go around testing people? It seems to me that is what you are doing to us. so what conclusion do you get based on this ? |
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Jun 8, 2008 18:15:31 GMT
Why do you think he is vengeful and bloodthirsty? |
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Post by elshamah on Jun 8, 2008 18:22:43 GMT
Well, I would dare say there are none, just like there are not even in our evangelical faith. Is Jesus Christ, and his sacrifice on the cross, not the base and content of evangelical christian belief ? i still do not understand, why you need to make part of freemasonry, to make charity , the way you described. To help AIDS patients, that the evangelical church does not help, you can do it, without making part of freemasonry. Friendship, charity and brotherly love are all values, that a christian can live within his brothers in faith. Why to try to share these things with people, that do not share the same religion and faith ? i do still not understand why you are a freemason. What compelling reason you have. Again : why a mason, and not only your brother in Christ ? again : in my opinion , Darkness and light, should not walk together. Why specially to a freemason ? Friendship, Morality, Charity, and Brotherly Love ? For that, all the rituals, symbols, secrecy etc ? p.s. you still did not answer specifically to my last post... difficult, huh ? shall i make the questions again ? i am not offbase. My argument stands, and is compelling. there is no reason to associate with a non-christian organisation, that 1. Do does not give to the God of the bible the honor , he deserves, but to a God with another name. 2. Looks forward to the time when the labor of their ancient brethren shall be symbolized by the erection of a spiritual temple...in which there shall be but one alter and one worship; one common altar of Masonry on which the Veda, Shastra, Sade, Zend-Avesta, Koran and Holy Bible shall lie...and at whose shrine the Hindoo, the Persian, the Assyrian, the Chaldean, the Egyptian, the Chinese, the Mohammedan, the Jew and the Christian may kneel..." ("The Kentucky Monitor." Fellowcraft Degree, p. 95) however, the bible says : All Scripture is given by inspiration of God... (II Tim. 3:16) ..if they speak not according to this Word, it is because there is no light in them. (Isa. 8:20) 2. claim : "If we with suitable true devotion maintain our Masonic profession, our faith will become a beam of light an bring us to those blessed mansions where we shall be eternally happy with God, the Great Architect of the Universe." (Daniel Sickles, "Ahimon Rezon or Freemason's Guide." p. 79) " As it is written. There is none righteous no not one: (Rom. 3:10) For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. (Rom. 3:23) For He hath made Him {Jesus} to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him. (II Cor. 5:21) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Eph. 2:8-9) |
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Post by maximus on Jun 8, 2008 18:40:53 GMT
i do still not understand why you are a freemason. What compelling reason you have . Long gone are the days when a man can be compelled, under threat, to adhere to a certain dogma. "Remember this: that God spoke to Balaam through his ass, and He has been speaking through asses ever since. So, if God should choose to speak through you, you need not think too highly of yourself. And, if on meeting someone, right away you recognize what they are, listen to them anyway." Rich Mullins |
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Post by droche on Jun 8, 2008 18:42:43 GMT
Angelo, I'll have to apologize up front if I offend you by this comment, but I feel a need to point out that I cannot help but notice a similarity between what you are doing on this thread and the fallen angel, Lucifer. Was not his purpose to go around testing people? It seems to me that is what you are doing to us. so what conclusion do you get based on this ? Well, I would say that since you call Freemasonry satanic, and since you are against Freemasonry for that reason among others, you should take a look at your own motivations and methods and not be so quick to pass judgements as you have because they can turn right around and bite you. |
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Post by billmcelligott on Jun 8, 2008 18:59:40 GMT
Bill, that is very enlightening, the fact that Lucifer may have been a man that put himself above God. I will apologise if my post seemed to indicate a similarity between Freemasonry and Satan; that was the furthest thing from my mind. My only point was to point out a similarity between what I have read about Lucifer, which admittedly does not go into great depth, and what is occurring here with Masonry being put on the defensive. Sorry, I have not been clear, my reason for interjecting was, that if you take the absolute word of God ie 'the Bible' to construct your premise upon; that Freemasonry is Evil or Satanic , then you have to look at who is interpreting the Bible and for what reason. What I have seen in this thread is. Q. Freemasonry believes in a different God? A. No it doesn't. There that proves it.  ?? Q. Freemasonry is a religion? A. No it isn't. You see I was told Freemasons would say that. ? There has been no explanation of Freemasonry being Satanic, just a series of links to other sites and a series of quotes from said sites. Now if we take the concept of the Christian Fundamentalist at its base argument, the Bible is the word of God. Then the CF has to explain what was meant by what seems to be obvious statements in the Bible that show the word Lucifer is in fact an error in translation. On the face of it, to a common person, it seems silly to call the Prince of Darkness, Lucifer [The light bringer]. We all know its Ozzie Ozborne. |
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Post by droche on Jun 8, 2008 19:02:09 GMT
i still do not understand, why you need to make part of freemasonry, to make charity , the way you described. To help AIDS patients, that the evangelical church does not help, you can do it, without making part of freemasonry. Friendship, charity and brotherly love are all values, that a christian can live within his brothers in faith. Why to try to share these things with people, that do not share the same religion and faith ? i do still not understand why you are a freemason. What compelling reason you have. Again : why a mason, and not only your brother in Christ ? again : in my opinion , Darkness and light, should not walk together. Why specially to a freemason ? Friendship, Morality, Charity, and Brotherly Love ? For that, all the rituals, symbols, secrecy etc ? One doesn't need Freemasonry to practice these things, but that does not mean that Freemasonry should not exist. The fact that the Evangelical Church does these things as well is good and I along with most Masons even not of an Evangelical persuasion applaud and encourage that. Not all people will want to practice these things the way that Freemasonry does (rituals, symbols, secrecy etc., as you put it) and that is fine. Freemasonry recognizes that and the vast majority of Freemasons will not look down upon such a person, certainly Masonic values do not. If you do not want to share these values with someone that is not of your faith as you imply, that is your prerogative, but I and countless others do, and if that is wrong I am willing to take my chances and take my lumps on Judgement Day. |
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Post by droche on Jun 8, 2008 19:08:29 GMT
Bill, that is very enlightening, the fact that Lucifer may have been a man that put himself above God. I will apologise if my post seemed to indicate a similarity between Freemasonry and Satan; that was the furthest thing from my mind. My only point was to point out a similarity between what I have read about Lucifer, which admittedly does not go into great depth, and what is occurring here with Masonry being put on the defensive. Sorry, I have not been clear, my reason for interjecting was, that if you take the absolute word of God ie 'the Bible' to construct your premise upon; that Freemasonry is Evil or Satanic , then you have to look at who is interpreting the Bible and for what reason. What I have seen in this thread is. Q. Freemasonry believes in a different God? A. No it doesn't. There that proves it. ?? Q. Freemasonry is a religion? A. No it isn't. You see I was told Freemasons would say that. ? There has been no explanation of Freemasonry being Satanic, just a series of links to other sites and a series of quotes from said sites. Now if we take the concept of the Christian Fundamentalist at its base argument, the Bible is the word of God. Then the CF has to explain what was meant by what seems to be obvious statements in the Bible that show the word Lucifer is in fact an error in translation. On the face of it, to a common person, it seems silly to call the Prince of Darkness, Lucifer [The light bringer]. We all know its Ozzie Ozborne. LOL, thank you. I understand. |
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Post by corab on Jun 8, 2008 19:12:38 GMT
Why to try to share these things with people, that do not share the same religion and faith ? Why not? Why limit yourself to any one particular worldview? See, the problem with people who identify so totally and utterly with their faith as you do is that every other faith and its adherents must per definition be "wrong" in order for your faith to be "right". That's not faith. That's an effort to justify existence. Faith has no need for such justification. It needs no external referents such as other faiths. It simply is. Well, we have something in common then. I still do not understand why you choose to be newborn evangelical christian, and why you choose to testify here. What compelling reasons do you have? Difficult? How come you can choose not to respond to our questions claiming that you do have time to answer all, but expect us to answer yours? Mine were:- |
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Post by leonardo on Jun 8, 2008 19:28:34 GMT
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Post by elshamah on Jun 8, 2008 20:58:44 GMT
but christianity has a solid base, the bible. And which Bible is that? There are so many to choose from and in so many languages too. Do you think this gives the impression of being solid? That so many have taken to translate so many times because they were dissatisfied with the one that was given them tells me how solid this profession you bespeak of is. well, you have as well the possibility to compare each one , and you have the possibility to read it in the original language. You can study it and get very accurately to the right meaning of it. I do not think such a effort is necessary. i have a bible in German, Elberfelder Bibel, wich is VERY accurately translated, and i am shure i get the message the right way. I have as well in Portugues, which is a Study bible, and each versicle is in depth explained. That helps me as well. So, there is truly enough base. well , i am not a mason, so i do not care. But i would like to know from you, to understand it better. I have learned BTW. a lot at this thread about freemasonry, too. You are wrong on this. Somebody can be Christian only, if he believes in Christ. The name Christian is derived from the name Christ, meant Jesus Christ. So, if someone does not believe in Christ, he is not a Christian. So he unites us. Even if someone is adherent of a different church ( catholic, orthodox, protestant etc. ) All have a common fait in Jesus Christ. There are different ways and levels of unity. what does make you feel, that i do not act in a rational and honoring way ? All that you have written so far leads me to this. I do not believe I have been mislead in this. Although, I'm sure based on your past responses that you believe I am wrong here too. [/quote] well, might you will specify concretely where i was irrational, and unhonored in my writing ? |
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Post by elshamah on Jun 8, 2008 21:06:52 GMT
Is Jesus Christ, and his sacrifice on the cross, not the base and content of evangelical christian belief ? Nope. If you think about it, it is used though as a way of controlling those who want to hear this or to occupy the time of those who have nothing better to do with their lives then to try to convince others of how evil they are and how guilty and ashamed they should feel. The Holy Bible showed you what it was to live an accountable life through the report of Jesus. You turned around and said that because you "believe in Him," you are no longer accountable for what you did up to the point of believing in Him. So, here you have Jesus telling you how to be held accountable and you turn around and bastardize His message by choosing not to live by His example and do just the opposite. I see from what you write that you do not want to be held accountable for your choices and want to use Jesus as a scapegoat for the evil you see in yourself. Is this WJWD? So, who is satanic? The person who does exactly the opposite of what is shown him to be the right way to live OR the person who lives the way he was shown to live. Yes, this is very clear to all who have eyes to read. Free will allows many choices. You feel you need explanations for actions taken by others. You may wait a long time though since most people who understand free will do not have a need to explain themselves to every one who asks for justifications. Why not? Jesus did this ALL THE TIME? Do you DARE question Jesus' actions on this? The irony here is that you believe you are trying to do here the very thing that you are questioning others on doing.'Cause he can. There should be no need to explain further. again : in my opinion , Darkness and light, should not walk together. Jesus' example and attitude was different than yours. Why don't you follow His example? i think you are not looking for a honest objective answer, but intend just to provoke. Sorry, i wont loose my time on respond on this. |
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Post by marcopolo on Jun 8, 2008 21:07:14 GMT
Well, I would dare say there are none, just like there are not even in our evangelical faith. Is Jesus Christ, and his sacrifice on the cross, not the base and content of evangelical christian belief ? OK, I'll try one last time. You have shown both a fundamental lack of logic, lack of understanding of our own faith, and an apparent inability to process straightforward answers to the very questions you ask. If these answers are still not clear, I would recommend you spend some time deepening your understanding of the fundamentals of both Christian theology, and a good logic course (they can be found very cheaply at even local community colleges). Here we go.... again. Is Jesus Christ, and his sacrifice on the cross, not the base and content of evangelical christian belief ? The base? Yes, but even in those very terms you use there are disagreements within evangelical Christianity. In that one sentence alone: 1. Jesus Christ. Who is he? God-man? Part of trinity? ONLY God and not part of the trinity? 2. Sacrifice. Was it a sacrifice if it was predestined? Was it the sole atoning work required for salvation? Does it require work on the part of the "saved" or are the saved merely "the elect". 3. Did he die on a cross? Was it a tree or a cross? Was his sacrifice actually BEFORE he was crucified if it was pre-elected, or was it only after the culmination of his death. Was it his death or his resurrection which sealed our salvation? You see, even in a fairly "uniformed" dogmatic religion like evangelical Christianity, there are no "universal truths". Do I believe, by and large, those beliefs are a common basis in evangelical Christianity? Yes. Just as I posted that there are many exceptions, but most Masons agree on the concepts of Brotherly Love and Charity. 1. For the same reason that the Red Cross exists instead of having 500,000 individuals trying to do their own thing. There is strength in numbers. That is why the single largest charity in the world continues to be Masonry. 2. I DO live in friendship, charity, and brotherly love with those in my faith as well as striving to do so with all men. 3. "Why to try to share these things with people, that do not share the same religion and faith ?" Are you SERIOUS? Because Christ said I should. Who is my brother? EVERYONE. If you feel we are only to share brotherly love and charity with those of our faith, you are certainly WAY out of touch with the teachings of Christ. I'm starting to see you view the practice of your faith in a very, very, very exclusive manner. If it happens in the church, it's holy. If it happens outside of the church, it's evil. I don't get that from the works of Christ at all. Not even close. (BTW, this was the THIRD time I answered that question for you. If this still isn't sufficient, I cannot make it any clearer. Any inability to understand these answers is either a considerable lack of academic ability, or a willful act on your part.) Again? Seriously? I've answered that multiple times. Because Christ told me EVERYONE was my brother. I strive to practice the tenants of love and charity to all men. And if my next door neighbor, who is a fireman, told me that his firehouse started a campaign to help single mothers and their children, I would be right there with them to help. Then you show a fundamental ignorance of both our faith, and an inability to understand the very scripture you keep quoting. (2Cor 6:14) (Read 1Cor7 to understand what this scripture actually meant. It spoke primarily to MARRIAGE.) Do you understand who wrote 1/2Cor? Do you understand WHY? Do you understand the issues he was addressing? By your misuse of this scripture, you certainly show a very fundamental lack of biblical understanding. Seriously, take a hermeneutics class. You are embarrassing yourself and other evangelican Christians (like me.) It seems Jesus yoked himself a great deal to unbelievers (using your interpretation of the verse). He spent much more time with the liars, cheaters, and prostitutes of the world than he did "yoked" with the established church. I have no more love for a freemason than I do for anyone else. I am taught to love all men as myself. That doesn't leave much room for favoritism. ALL. I can, however, show more TRUST in a freemason, as he has been vouched for and is accountable. I know more about him. I assume that you do not love ME any less than you love your best friend. However, you probably wouldn't ask me, a complete stranger to watch your house while you were on vacation, or trust me to handle your life's savings. You simply KNOW your best friend better. No more, no less. Please do not try to make anything out of this that isn't there. No. No. No. No. No. I have answered this before. Please, pay attention. The only secrets are the way in which we identify ourselves to each other. I have answered every question (multiple times in fact) that have seen. If somehow I missed one, please let me know. If I am simply not giving you an answer you like, that is a different issue. At long last, brother, you are still in ignorance. I have done everything I possibly can to help you. I can do no more. You are still clinging to your incorrect assumptions that I practice a religion with a plan of salvation. You can quote all the scripture you want, as you have show that you have virtually no understanding of it. Here is an interesting exercise in scripture for you: "And he departed and hanged himself" Matthew 27:5 "Go ye therefore and do likewise" Luke 10:37 I am not surprised that you remain dogmatic. It is, frankly, your only choice as you seem to show very little understanding of the gospels. It is your lot, therefore, to take what has been fed you with no room whatever for interpretation. I can see how this fear would cause you to condemn anything which is not lock-step with the interpretation which has been taught you (I did not say YOUR interpretation as I feel that you have not come to this conclusion yourself.) Believe me, God does not mind being questioned. If, as we both believe, he is the truth.. questioning him only makes this truth more evident. Truth does not hide form the light, but welcomes the light to show it's beauty. Until you show the ability to understand the basic concepts of YOUR OWN stated theology, any concept whatsoever or hermeneutics, and even a modicum of basic logic, I fear there is no need for me to continue to answer the same questions again, and again, and again, and again, and again. It becomes like me trying to answer our german tourist friends from a few posts back. You just aren't going to understand the very answer you are demanding. |
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Post by corab on Jun 8, 2008 21:30:19 GMT
Hey guys? You know what's on Film4 here right now? Dogma. Who says God doesn't have a sense of humour, eh? ;D |
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Post by droche on Jun 8, 2008 21:35:16 GMT
I have learned BTW. a lot at this thread about freemasonry, too. Share with us what you have learned, if you don't mind. |
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