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Post by elshamah on Jun 4, 2008 11:12:56 GMT
As the accusing party, it is up to you to "prove it." So far, not very successfully. All you have done is copy and paste adresses to anti-masonic websites. Do you have a mind of your own with which to reason? Can you present a cogent arguement based on reason and logic, or must you rely on the props of the words of others? If not, then you are simply like a parrot, regurgitating the words impressed on your brain without understanding. Present an arguement based on reason, if you can. well, one point i have shown already : freemasons claim that the objective of freemasonry it to better men. I have argumented that this is a heresy against God, since only God has the power to transform the nature of men, through his power and holy spirit. I do in fact use arguments of webpages and of others. What is interesting so far, is that nobody has come up to discredit with hard facts what these anti masonic pages in fact say . That makes me only belief these say the truth. Don't they ?
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Post by elshamah on Jun 4, 2008 11:22:18 GMT
I and others have asked you to state specific aspects of Freemasonry that will substantiate your claims about the Fraternity, and so far, you have not done so, yet, you demand proof of the statements made to you. good point. might we should pick up one matter, and discuss it. why not the one, that has been brought to discussion alread ? is freemasonry a religion, or not ? www.biblebb.com/files/MASONS.HTMSo. is it relevant or not, what Albert Pike said ? absolutely not. as said, i have nothing against freemasons. I have however, a very bad opinion about freemasonry.
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Post by elshamah on Jun 4, 2008 11:25:05 GMT
Well I for one would sincerely like to thank elshamah for sharing his opinions of Freemasonry with us on the forum. I have seen so much light and love stream forth from my fellow members on this thread. We have truly shared our innermost experiences with each other in the most heartfelt manner. How often does such an wonderful opportunity present itself like this? Elshamah, you are not evil, like the rest of us you are just imperfect. You can't be Satanical because you have enabled us to see the Light more clearly in each other. You have bought us a great gift, and I would like to thank you for it. We also have a gift for you but you don't have to accept it. That is up to you. Love Maat thanks, but i don't accept gifts from the enemy of men, the devil. Love, BTW, is , when someone tries to open the eyes to others. But for this, the blind must also want to see. Otherwise, he will contiue blind.
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Post by elshamah on Jun 4, 2008 11:27:39 GMT
y'know, we've got a very cool section here where you could post your paper Well, we do To quote the great Johnny Carson, "Well.. I, uh, did not know that." I will post it with this caveat. I did not author all of it. Some of it is cut and pasted from google searches I did during my original quest to see if Masonry was for me and to answer many of the "charges" I had heard leveled against the craft before I joined. Thanks for pointing me in that direction! to elshamah, Again, my brother, you have continued to quote what some evangelicals have said, but have never even given me the respect of a reply that I feel was very straight forward, honest, and a from the heart. I feel it is a horrible witness to continue to bear false witness about something you know absolutely nothing about and claim it to be factual. I, on the other hand, AM speaking factually and have experienced both freemasonry AND evangelical Christianity. Common sense would tell you that I would be in a better position to judge the claim of "satanic religion" than you, no? Again, please stop bearing false witness. I pray that the HS convicts you on what you are doing. might we discuss just one subject, to see, if i am wrong to believe the homepages, i link to. There relies to you to clarify, for example, if freemasonry is, or not, a religion. Might you give a read to the last homepage, i linked to, and than answer.
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Post by elshamah on Jun 4, 2008 11:47:27 GMT
Elshamah said: <<<"it is in my opinion a dangerous path. I believe in the bible as the true word of God, as it is written : 3:16 Every scripture23 is inspired by God24 and useful for teaching, for reproof,25 for correction, and for training in righteousness, 3:17 that the person dedicated to God26 may be capable27 and equipped for every good work. So , to learn there, and follow the instructions in the bible, is a secure path, in my opinion, and i have choosen to go for this way. And it makes more than 24 years now. ">>> Wouldn't be tragic if we ALL were only allowed to read ONE sacred book? God has given me freedom, as to anyone else. So i can read and do, whatever other religious book i want. However, i have decided, freely, to give credit ONLY to the bible. And be VERY happy with this decision. absolutely. That's one of the wonderful things, God blesses me with. i don't know why you have this idea about God. Have you studied the bible ? i don't say, just read it. Have you studied it ? Have you asked God for wisdom to understand it ? Have you spend time , studiyng it ? I very much don't think so, otherwise, you would know God better. that has all to do with religion. one more reason, i believe, freemasonry IS a religion. The symbols DO have religious meenings. you play right into my hands, and confirm all i am saying. Instead to trust God, and let God transform you to truly get a born again person, with a new human nature, where God lives inside of you through the holy spirit, and starts a work of redemption, and a new life, where positive values, and specially, a wonderful community with the almight takes place, you have replaced it with freemasonry, with the illusion, you got a " better " person. You think you got a better person, because of external actions, but your motivations, your nature, all remains the same. I've seen that with my freemason employee. He also came up with this ability of freemasonry to make men better, and then failed to proof it to me miserably in practice. You have left the ONLY way to give you a meaningful live, community with the creator, forgiveness of your sins ( which is possible only through the sacrifice of Christ ) , and the hope for forever life. You have give up the most precious, you can find in this life. That's tragic. i am very sorry for you. to follow Jesus is NOT a prison. God frees us from our SELF, from our sins.gives us a new nature, and makes us truly free, to stop serving our flesh human nature, to get a new, divine nature, through the holy spirit, and to start to serve God, in justice, in rightfulness, in love. A prison is to be a sinner, and not to have a way, to get out of our human nature, that makes us sin, without that we really want. In ignorance, probably, you are today. Jesus said : i am the way, the truth , and life, nobody comes to the father, than through me. If you have Jesus, you have everything. He is the precious, you can find. All the rest, is worthless dirt. In 25 Years, nobody has teached you about GRACE ? Christianity is in fact the only religion, that has this principle, of God beeing graceful to us, and forgiving us all our sins through Jesus Christ. So now, we are becoming beloved children of God, not because of what we did, and are, but because of his grace and love to us. oh, don't worry. i am christian exactly because i think, too.
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Post by elshamah on Jun 4, 2008 11:48:02 GMT
Actually, you are the person with the argument so the burden of proof is on you! have i not done that already ?
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Post by corab on Jun 4, 2008 11:50:47 GMT
Love, BTW, is , when someone tries to open the eyes to others. By whose definition? And by what motives? Blind by whose standards?
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Post by corab on Jun 4, 2008 11:52:27 GMT
Angelo, I think you may have missed this in the recent flurry of activity on this thread. I am quite interested in your thoughts on this:- Okay ... do you physically SEE God? I do not mean how He manifests Himself in His Creation, but He Himself. Do you physically SEE Him? Okay, let's put that back into its original context:- Yesterday at 11:32, CoraB wrote: When you do not see something, does that mean you believe it is not there? yes, it is what i wanted to say. Can you see what you've done here? You have stated that (a) you do not believe something exists unless you can see it, AND (b) that you do not see God. Yet you believe in Him. That proves that some things exist even though you cannot see them, doesn't it?
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Post by gipsyrose on Jun 4, 2008 12:06:12 GMT
Elshanah You said "I believe, freemasonry IS a religion." My experience of freemasonry is that rather than being a religion, it is a tool for deepening my understanding of the religion I choose to be involved with, in much the way that Bible study notes have deepened my understanding of the Bible.
gipsyrose
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Post by droche on Jun 4, 2008 13:04:04 GMT
As the accusing party, it is up to you to "prove it." So far, not very successfully. All you have done is copy and paste adresses to anti-masonic websites. Do you have a mind of your own with which to reason? Can you present a cogent arguement based on reason and logic, or must you rely on the props of the words of others? If not, then you are simply like a parrot, regurgitating the words impressed on your brain without understanding. Present an arguement based on reason, if you can. well, one point i have shown already : freemasons claim that the objective of freemasonry it to better men. I have argumented that this is a heresy against God, since only God has the power to transform the nature of men, through his power and holy spirit. I do in fact use arguments of webpages and of others. What is interesting so far, is that nobody has come up to discredit with hard facts what these anti masonic pages in fact say . That makes me only belief these say the truth. Don't they ? So, are you saying men i.e. people, are not able to improve others? That very much perplexes me for it happens every day. Parents improve their children as do teachers. Leaders in business, the military and elswhere, if they are good leaders, improve the people in their stewardship. In the US the purpose of the Boy Scouts is to improve the character of it's members and I am certain that there are countless other organizations throughout the world with the same purpose. Are you against those as well? Do you feel that they are evil or satanic? I agree with you in a broad sense that only God can transform the nature of people, but I believe that this can be done through other people. I respectfully feel that your interpretation of that is not accurate. Regarding the web pages you gave cited, I think it is incumbent on you to state what it is on those web pages that support your conclusions about Freemasonry. You have come here and made these statements and allegations; I don't think it's unreasonable to ask you to specify what is there that supports your view.
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Post by droche on Jun 4, 2008 13:12:50 GMT
I and others have asked you to state specific aspects of Freemasonry that will substantiate your claims about the Fraternity, and so far, you have not done so, yet, you demand proof of the statements made to you. good point. might we should pick up one matter, and discuss it. why not the one, that has been brought to discussion alread ? is freemasonry a religion, or not ? www.biblebb.com/files/MASONS.HTMSo. is it relevant or not, what Albert Pike said ? absolutely not. as said, i have nothing against freemasons. I have however, a very bad opinion about freemasonry. No, no... as I posted above, you came here and made certain statements; it is incumbent on you to support them. You tell us if Freemasonry is a religion. If so, why? If not, why? What exactly did Albert Pike write that supports your statements? I can read that web page all day and I still won't know what exactly what is written there that makes you feel the way you do.
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Post by billmcelligott on Jun 4, 2008 13:20:04 GMT
How about we try to understand more of the thinking of a Christian Fundamentalist. A fundamentalist is someone who takes the Bible OLD (KJV) as God's Word and adds nothing to and takes nothing away. If it's in there, it is the Gospel as set down BY God, Christ, The Holy Spirit. The infallible word of God. For most of the worlds population , it is difficult to accept that this is the case as the Bible is full of inconsistencies, such as and eye for an eye, if someone pokes my eye out. for a second I want to poke out the guys eyes , brain and teeth, but I soon calm down and think , well there is no point in both of us only having one eye. I have personally always looked at the Bible stories as parables, they may have happened, they may not but the important thing is we learn from them. In the same way as Jesus used stories to explain to the populous some difficult teachings. Of course we all know there are many Gospels and it was one man who decided which were to be included in the New Testament as we know - 'Constantine'. Now it could have been the hand of God that guided that decision, we have no way to prove that. The Gospel of Thomas has always felt more realistic to me, he did not have the same slant on the life of Jesus as Mathew , Mark, Luke and John , facts were about the same but his interpretation was different. But the Fundamentalist will believe all that is written , just as it is written. One of the interetsing things is , there is no mention of Freemasonry in the Bible, good or bad. This is a report I published not long ago............................................... GRAND RAPIDS -- Filmmaker and anthropologist Graham Townsley could not believe it when he heard his friend, Kent Dobson, lost his job after hosting a historical documentary about Jesus. "We bent over backward to be really careful and not make crazy assertions," Townsley said of the Discovery Channel program he made with Dobson last summer in Egypt and Israel. "We were so careful to be respectful." Dobson, the 31-year-old son of retired Calvary Church pastor Ed Dobson, resigned his post as Bible teacher at NorthPointe Christian High School last week after the school board questioned his role in the March 16 special, "Jesus: The Missing History." On the hourlong program, Dobson questioned biblical scholars on possible contradictions between the Gospels and the historical evidence of Jesus' life. The questions included: • Was Bethlehem Jesus' birthplace? • Was Jesus a carpenter or a stone mason? • Was Jesus' eviction of money changers from the temple a political or religious move? • Is there any truth in the Gnostic gospels? In the program, which is not scheduled for rebroadcast, Dobson does not definitively answer the questions or take a position. He interviews biblical scholars who present evidence that contradicts the Bible. "You see, when I was a kid, we were told the four Gospels of the New Testament told you everything you needed to know about Jesus," Dobson says early in the program. "But as I studied the ancient history of my faith, I started coming up with real questions." Those questions were what led to Dobson's resignation, his father, Ed Dobson, said last week. Ed Dobson said the board left his son with no choice but to resign. Kent Dobson, NorthPointe school board President Kevin Belk and other board members have refused to comment on the specifics of Dobson's departure from the private school on the city's Northeast Side. Superintendent Jim Hofman said only that Dobson resigned because it was apparent to all parties involved that statements made on the program were "outside of the school's Statement of Faith." Carlos Hidalgo, Dobson's friend and former chairman of the NorthPointe school board, said the teacher's desire to delve deep into Scripture is what appealed to his students. "This is what Kent is all about. You don't hide from the tough questions or turn them aside," Hidalgo said. "Young people look for truth, not just glib answers like, 'We've always done it this way.' He challenges the status quo in a soft, nonbelligerent kind of way," Hidalgo said. But, once you start asking questions, "all the dominos start falling," said NorthPointe parent and Calvin College professor Don Hettinga. "The unfortunate thing about these events is that they suggest that thinking deeply and asking questions is wrong," he said. Dobson was recruited nearly two years ago to teach Bible classes to juniors at NorthPointe, formerly Grand Rapids Baptist Schools. He also traveled to Israel with his students and lived there with his family from 2002-05. NorthPointe has a "Christian world and life view taught from a conservative viewpoint," according to the school's Web site. That's in contrast to Dobson's style of asking questions and digging deep for the truth, friends said. Townsley, the filmmaker, said Dobson had hoped his role in the program would not be an issue with the school board. "He had hoped they would accept it was done in a very Christian spirit. He's a very Christian guy. I don't think he imagined it would be this much of an issue," Townsley said. At the close of the program, Dobson discusses the Gnostic gospels, discovered in Egypt in the 1940s, with Father Maximus Al-Anthony, a monk. In one gospel, the apostle Thomas doubts the divinity of Jesus. Father Maximum dismisses the writings as "heresy," but Dobson said he can't just dismiss them outright simply because they raise lots of questions. "I don't think even Thomas wants someone like me to stop asking questions. I think that's just part of being an honest person," Dobson said. www.mlive.com/news/index.ssf/200 ... _oust.html
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Post by marcopolo on Jun 4, 2008 14:21:02 GMT
elhamah,
You STILL haven't responded to any of my posts. It seems you are looking for an argument rather than any type of information.
I can't make it any more simple:
Q: Can a man be a born again Christian and a Mason? A: YES! I AM!
Q: Is Masonry a religion? A: NO!
Q: How do you know? A: Because I'm both an Evangelical Christian (even Pentecostal) AND a Master Mason.
You can chose to believe either those who are trying to sell you books or you can believe me, someone who has absolutely nothing to gain from you either way. To continue to not take to heart what I have said is doing 1 of 2 things:
1. Accusing me of being a liar. 2. Doubting my salvation.
Which is it?
I stand with clear conscious before God. I have made every effort as a brother to whisper good counsel in your ear. If you continue to spread false witness after I have given you the truth, you stand convicted before God.
I just posted a paper last night in the "Papers and Articles" section that you may want to read. It was my heartfelt response to a friend who was concerned about my salvation after I became a Mason. I think if you are earnestly looking for answers, it will have all the answers you need on where all this misinformation came from.
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Post by marcopolo on Jun 4, 2008 14:40:28 GMT
good point. might we should pick up one matter, and discuss it. why not the one, that has been brought to discussion alread ? is freemasonry a religion, or not ? www.biblebb.com/files/MASONS.HTMSo. is it relevant or not, what Albert Pike said ? Brother, you ARE BEARING FALSE WITNESS. One of the major quotes in the VERY page you link to has PROVEN to be a hoax. The very AUTHOR of the source listed has ADMITTED it was a hoax. Did the single author quoted (Albert Pike) believe Masonry was a religion to him? I don't know, that would be between Pike and God. I do know that Pike remained a devout Trinitarian Christian and active in his home church until the day he died. HOWEVER, just because one man who happened to have written a book might have viewed our fraternity as his source of religious instruction certainly does NOT mean that the rest of us do and most definitely does NOT prove it is a religion. Again, these quotes are from ONE Mason over 100 years ago. I'm sure that you and I both know we could dig up some pretty incredible beliefs from our own people (Evangelical Christians) that would shame us. I'd hate for someone to quote a single author and try to paint us all with that brush. (Here in Texas, in the largest evangelical/pentecostal denomination it was preached that Black people had no souls. And more recently than Pike authored his work, I might add. Did everyone believe this then? No. Do people believe that today? God forbid!)
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Post by maximus on Jun 4, 2008 15:03:45 GMT
But, once you start asking questions, "all the dominos start falling," said NorthPointe parent and Calvin College professor Don Hettinga. Interesting admission here. Questioning causes the dominos to fall. The fundy mindset requires unquestioning faith in the infalibility of the KJV version of the Bible. Any fallibility that is pointed out undermines the entire structure as presented by the Fundy belief system.
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imakegarb
Member
One wee, sleeket, cowran, tim'rous beastie
Posts: 3,573
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Post by imakegarb on Jun 4, 2008 16:21:13 GMT
Greetings! It is most unfair to categorize *all* Fundamentalist Christians in this way. I number Fundamentalists among my friends and, as I mentioned earlier, I was raised on this. Not all Fundamentalist Christians are narrow minded, self righteous folk who would burn me at the stake if they were so empowered (wait for it). And Fundamentalism, itself, does not "require" unquestioning faith in the Bible or anything else. Instead, these are the signs of a religiously fanatical **individual**, regardless of their faith. Such folks clothe themselves in a religion - any religion will do - to suck up the credibility of that faith. They then seek to be empowered over others, within that faith and without it. In times they are not empowered, they are harmless cranks. In times when they are empowered, they cause great misery. Sure, there are a number of these among Fundamentalists. You'll also find them in other branches of Christianity and other faiths. And just because there are individuals in one faith who are poor examples of that faith does not reflect on the entire faith. I try to bear this in mind when I'm discussing such individuals and I try to be careful to concentrate upon the individual rather than make blanket statements about their faith. Elshamah, here at Masonic Forum of Light, we strongly encourage our members to speak for themselves. I've noted evidence of someone else in your more recent posts. It could be you're just getting some advice on what you see as Spiritual Warfare (puh) or it could be a puppet master. Difficult for me to say just yet. Since it would be better if you speak here for yourself, I suggest you ask your friend(s) to sign up and join the thread. As you can see, there's plenty of us to go around. BTW, I'm liking you. The last AntiMason who turned up here suggested only Male Freemasons are worth saving. You are, at least, more broadly minded than that
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Post by penfold on Jun 4, 2008 18:08:52 GMT
Wouldn't be so sure about that Karen, from Timothy 1 ch2 2:9In the same way, that women also adorn themselves in decent clothing, with modesty and propriety; not just with braided hair, gold, pearls, or expensive clothing; 2:10 but (which becomes women professing godliness) with good works. 2:11 Let a woman learn in quietness with all subjection. 2:12 But I don’t permit a woman to teach, nor to exercise authority over a man, but to be in quietness. 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 2:14 Adam wasn’t deceived, but the woman, being deceived, has fallen into disobedience; 2:15 but she will be saved through her childbearing, if they continue in faith, love, and sanctification with sobriety.
So really its the girl's fault! ;D
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imakegarb
Member
One wee, sleeket, cowran, tim'rous beastie
Posts: 3,573
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Post by imakegarb on Jun 4, 2008 18:45:54 GMT
In the garden of Eden, the Man committed the greater sin. He told God, the woman that YOU gave me . . . He blamed God. Arrogance. Pride. Not cool. And the Man left Eve alone in the garden . . . why? Where, exactly, was *he* when the serpent turned up? What was so very important that he had to run off and leave Eve to fend for herself? Nope, it's *his* fault. But us women like you men anyway And wouldn't dream of barring you from the Light
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Post by marcopolo on Jun 4, 2008 19:27:54 GMT
As a man who has been happily married for the last 15 years, I can assure you REGARDLESS of what actually happened in the Garden... it was somehow his fault.
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Post by maximus on Jun 4, 2008 19:31:49 GMT
As a man who has been happily married for the last 15 years, I can assure you REGARDLESS of what actually happened in the Garden... it was somehow his fault. I concur!
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