i am a born again, evangelical christian

[hollandr]

Angelo

You seem to take Masonry at face value.

But every Mason is taught that Masonry is a peculiar system/science of morality that is veiled in allegory and illustrated by symbols

Hence every explanation needs to be unveiled and that is not so easy

In the case above of translating JBO you may be assured that the translation is a typical veiling and not to be taken literally

It is equally questionable whether the mysteries of Christianity have been unveiled.

I recall St Paul telling the faithful that they were as children and not suited to meat so he gave them only milk - choosing to speak to them only of Christ and Christ risen.

And the disciples wondered why the populace were only spoken to in parables whereas they were told (some of) the mysteries of heaven.

It seems to me therefore that the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven have remained veiled from the faithful

I suggest then that literal interpretations of veiled meanings may be unwise whether in Christianity or Masonry

[billmcelligott]

elshamah :
you forgot, the new testament, as well.

No I did not I said ' it is the Gospel as set down BY God, Christ, The Holy Spirit.'

where does the inconsistency rely on this versicle ? You forget, that this command was written for the jewish people, 4000 Years ago.

Well if you accept my first line then it makes no difference. Do you believe the Bible is the word of God or not. You cant just pick some bits.

the archaeological discoveries have given right to the bible, time after time. Everything, there written, is historical fact, and has happened. There is nobody, that prooved, that the bible lied at some point.

No one can prove something did not happen, the point of archaeology is to prove it did. However you can not say that Historians and Archaeologists have proven the Bible, they have not. They have supported some parts of it yes.

this is complete missinformation. It was at the concil of nicea. constantine had nothing to do with it.

The emperor himself, in very respectful letters, begged the bishops of every country to come promptly to Nicaea. Several bishops from outside the Roman Empire (e.g., from Persia) came to the Council. It is not historically known whether the emperor in convoking the Council acted solely in his own name or in concert with the pope; however, it is probable that Constantine and Sylvester came to an agreement (see POPE ST. SYLVESTER I). In order to expedite the assembling of the Council, the emperor placed at the disposal of the bishops the public conveyances and posts of the empire; moreover, while the Council lasted he provided abundantly for the maintenance of the members.

The emperor waited until all the bishops had taken their seats before making his entry. He was clad in gold and covered with precious stones in the fashion of an Oriental sovereign. A chair of gold had been made ready for him, and when he had taken his place the bishops seated themselves. After he had been addressed in a hurried allocution, the emperor made an address in Latin, expressing his will that religious peace should be re-established.
Catholic Enc.
www.newadvent.org/cathen/11044a.htm

so what do you want to say with that ?

The question posed was, was Jesus a Carpenter or was he a Mason , a builder ? if you go to Israel and Palestine now the houses are make of rock and plaster not timber. They were made of rock in those times, especially by Herod who was the most prolific of monumental builders outside Rome.
www.bibletopics.com/BibleStudy/116.htm

[billmcelligott]

elshamah :
you have a hard time to explain - that's evident , and , honestly, you do not convince me.

I just supply facts, you either understand them or you do not. I can only supply them. I have no wish to convince you just make you think.

THE GRAND ARCHITECT OF THE UNIVERSE

Masonic ritual is concerned with the recovery of the name of God - supposedly lost through the murder, during the building of Solomon's Temple of the Architect, Hiram Abiff - a 'Quest' not attained until the ROYAL ARCH DEGREE. It is here that the SECRET NAME of the DEITY OF MASONRY is revealed. That name is 'JAOBULON'. 'JAO' is the Greek word for Jehovah. 'BUL' is a rendering of the name, BAAL. 'ON' is the term used in the Babylonian mysteries to call upon the deity, 'OSIRIS'! The secret ritual book of the Craft prints the letters J.B.O. It states that: "We three do meet and agree - in peace, love and unity - the Sacred Word to keep - and never to divulge the same - until we three, or three such as we - do meet and agree." Thus, no Royal Arch Mason can pronounce the whole sacred name by himself!

What you see represented, then, as the god of Freemasonry, is a three headed monster so remote from the Christian trinity as to be so blasphemous as to damn the eternal soul of anyone who would dare to pronounce its name in a ritual of worship!

how do you explain this ??

As this is made up by an anti-masonic site it is not from a Masonic site. I have no way to explain it.

All I can tell you is I have been through the Chairs in Royal Arch and I have never said the word Jubulon. On my own or with the help of two others.

I have given you an explanation of the word and references to prove the explanation.

I put the word 'Jehovah' and 'JOA' into a Greek Tranlator both modern and ancient Greek and it found nothing so the statement above " 'JAOBULON'. 'JAO' is the Greek word for Jehovah". Is in itself BUL.

www.kypros.org/cgi-bin/lexicon here try it yourself.

[maximus]

Jun 4, 2008 22:23:37 GMT elshamah said:

THE GRAND ARCHITECT OF THE UNIVERSE

Masonic ritual is concerned with the recovery of the name of God - supposedly lost through the murder, during the building of Solomon's Temple of the Architect, Hiram Abiff - a 'Quest' not attained until the ROYAL ARCH DEGREE. It is here that the SECRET NAME of the DEITY OF MASONRY is revealed.

Not true. It is not the "secret name of God" that is sought in The Three degrees of antient Craft Masonry.

That name is 'JAOBULON'. 'JAO' is the Greek word for Jehovah.

Wrong. Jehovah is German, and is a Germanized version of the hebrew YHVH, or Yahweh.

'BUL' is a rendering of the name, BAAL. 'ON' is the term used in the Babylonian mysteries to call upon the deity, 'OSIRIS'!

Wrong again. "Baal" is a Cannanite term meaning "Lord." It does not refer to a specific diety, but is a generic honorific applied to many different mytalogical diety representations. Yaweh is a "Baal."

"On" seems to be a shortened version of Onannes, which is a Babylonian god associated with the sea.

Osiris is an Egyptian god of ressurection and eternal life. (sounds familiar.

What you see represented, then, as the god of Freemasonry, is a three headed monster so remote from the Christian trinity as to be so blasphemous as to damn the eternal soul of anyone who would dare to pronounce its name in a ritual of worship!

how do you explain this ??

As so much codswallop.

[droche]

Jun 4, 2008 22:20:18 GMT elshamah said:

Jun 4, 2008 21:54:21 GMT droche said:

Jun 4, 2008 21:02:25 GMT elshamah said:

OK, you have asked me a specific question. I will answer it. To put things in perspective, you must remember that many non-Masons and some Masons think that Albert Pike was the final authority on matters Masonic. Such is not the case. Pike even said that he was not the final authority, and that Masons were free to disagree with him, and that if his views did not find general acceptance, that was fine with him. The other thing is that Pike is not around to defend himself; he was writing in a different time and in different contexts than what is discussed today, thus, I think it a bit unfair to cite him as a final authority. He was and is well respected, yes, but a final authority, no. As was written elsewhere on this thread, he was a prolific writer and was in many cases expressing his thoughts and he might not have even believed what he was saying- he could have been merely thinking out loud.

If he did in fact say and feel that Freemasonry was a religion, I do not agree. Freemasonry differs from a religion in that it has no religious doctrine, dogma, creed or liturgy. It does not require it's members to believe in any of the above, nor does it require anything commonly found in religions such as dietary laws, fasting, the celebration of holidays, certain dress requirements, scriptures or specific prohibitions on political or moral philosophies (e.g. abortion). As a matter of fact, discussions of such matters in a Masonic Lodge are strictly forbidden. Freemasonry uses lessons taught in religions only as an example of how we should act, but it takes these lessons from different religions and it recognizes no one religion over another, and does not say that it's members must believe in the sources from which these lessons are taken.

So no, I do not believe that Freemasonry is a religion. The aspects of it that make it non-religious far outweigh those aspects that make it appear to some to be a religion.

Albert Pike is however, not the only one, that stated clearly, that freemasonry is a religion :

"Masonry is, in every sense of the word, except one, and that its least philosophical, an eminently religious institution - that it is indebted solely to the religious element which it contains for its origin and for its continued existence and that without this religious element it would scarcely be worthy of cultivation by the wise and good."..."Freemasonry is NOT Christianity nor a substitute for it"...."But the religion of Masonry is not sectarian. t admits men of every creed within its hospitable bosom, rejecting none and approving none for his particular faith"..."Masonry, then, is, indeed, a religious institution; and on this ground mainly, if not alone, should the religious Mason defend it." (Encyclopedia of Freemasonry, Albert G. Mackey, Revised Edition, 1921, pages 618, 619)

I listed the major elements of religion and pointed out that Freemasonry does not contain these elements. Anyone can say that Freemasonry is a religion, but, to paraphrase the old saying, if something does not look like a rose, feel like a rose or smell like a rose, then it is not a rose.

The quote you made above from Mackey's, I do not see where he is stating that Freemasonry is a religion. He says it is religious. That is true, but being religious does not make it a religion. He talks about the religion of Freemasonry. This, I can see where it could be interpreted as stating that Freemasonry is a religion, but it could also mean religion in a generic sense, in other words, a set of uniform beliefs, but not in a theological sense. I just don't know. But then, using the statements I just noted as support he says, "Freemasonry then, is a religious institution..." Again he says religious. I do not interpret that as saying that it is a religion.

All I can say is that I have been an active Mason for 22 years and an active church attender for 28 years and from what I can see, there are religious elements in Freemasonry, but in my view it is definitely not a religion. I'll use the Boy Scouts as a comparison again: There are military aspects to the Boy Scouts, but I don't think any reasonable person would see the Boy Scouts as the military. In the same way, Freemasonry has religious elements, but I don't think very many who have experienced it would say that it is a religion.

[maat]

Jun 4, 2008 18:08:52 GMT penfold said:

2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

Only after He thought "Shute, I can do better than that!"

[maat]

Jun 4, 2008 11:25:05 GMT elshamah said:

thanks, but i don't accept gifts from the enemy of men, the devil.

As you can see from my post above, I can be a little devil alright ;D

Maat

[maat]

Just a little question Elshamah - you're really enjoying this, I can tell. But can you tell me - why?

[alchymicalmason]

Jun 4, 2008 11:47:27 GMT elshamah said:

Jun 4, 2008 4:34:12 GMT @alchymicalmason said:

Elshamah said:
<<<"it is in my opinion a dangerous path. I believe in the bible as the true word of God, as it is written :

3:16 Every scripture23 is inspired by God24 and useful for teaching, for reproof,25 for correction, and for training in righteousness, 3:17 that the person dedicated to God26 may be capable27 and equipped for every good work.

So , to learn there, and follow the instructions in the bible, is a secure path, in my opinion, and i have choosen to go for this way.
And it makes more than 24 years now. ">>>

Wouldn't be tragic if we ALL were only allowed to read ONE sacred book?

God has given me freedom, as to anyone else. So i can read and do, whatever other religious book i want. However, i have decided, freely, to give credit ONLY to the bible. And be VERY happy with this decision.



absolutely. That's one of the wonderful things, God blesses me with.

I am not going to get into an argument over who has read the Bible more or understands it more because I don't care what you think of me. It truly does not matter. I don't need to justify what I read and understand to you or anyone else.

I did not "play into your hands" as you say. I was merely pointing out that there are many choices of reading material and it is my sincere wish that you open your mind and see what you are doing out of sheer ignorance.

You know NOTHING about us yet you attack us and accuse us of worshiping Satan. If you had read other holy books and learned about the cultures and beliefs of others you would probably show more respect. Instead, you advertise your ignorance by writing hateful, disrespectful, false, rude things about us. Not a very Christian way to act!

Someday you will be ashamed of yourself and regret this behavior. I don't know how old you are but you must be very young. You write like a stubborn child who is mad because he isn't getting his way. Perhaps you would be better off on an intolerant CHRISTIAN forum where you can wallow in your self righteousness and superiority with other the other pompous narcissists.

Peace to all, especially you!

[thevoiceofreason]

I am a Freemason and I reject Jesus Christ. I also reject Yahweh, Moses, Mohammed, Satan, Joseph Smith and L. Ron Hubbard.

I find the Bible to be nothing more that poorley written episodic fiction. There is ZERO factual evidence that Jesus Christ ever walked the Earth. No one from his time ever mentioned him even though he supposedly raised the dead, healed the sick, walked on water and rose from the dead. Pure poppycock.

I do believe in the Grand Architect Of The Universe so you can say what you will about that.

I am free from the fog of faith.

I reject the Trinity and I am not afraid.

Bro. Aaron Pierce
www.godvsthebible.com

[droche]

Actually a Roman historian whose, name escapes me, did write about the crucifixion of Christ shortly after it happened, and this is supposedly the only reference to Christ outside of the scriptures, but did provide independent corroboration of his existence. But I digress.

I just read the entire Mackey article about the religious nature of Freemasonry. Fot anyone interested here is a link: www.phoenixmasonry.org/mackeys_encyclopedia/r.htm. Scroll down to "Religion." What the article is trying to say is that there are many out there who are afraid of acknowledging the religious nature of Freemasonry due to giving the anti-masons more ammunition, thus they attempt to disassociate Freemasonry and religion. The entry goes on to say in so many words that Masonry is, except for one aspect, a religious organization and owes it's existence to that. In so many words it also says so what if it's detractors say it is religious? Let them. Nowhere does the entry say that Freemasonry is a religion. In fact it says, as Angelo quoted, that it is not a substitute for Christianity. I interpret that as it's leaning to say that it is not a religion.

By the way, Angelo, Mackey's, as well as Pike, is not authoritative. It is a respected reference but it's word is not final, especially in matters of opinion of which this entry clearly is.

[droche]

Jun 5, 2008 1:04:20 GMT @prometheus said:

Jun 4, 2008 11:25:05 GMT elshamah said:

thanks, but i don't accept gifts from the enemy of men, the devil.

This shows blatant hypocrisy.

You insist on accepting the lies of others and the lies within your heart. You turn your back on the truth and make the claim stated above.

You are possessed of the dark one for sure. You are lost and don't know it. May G-d have mercy on your soul.

P

Every objective analysis of Freemasonry has come to the conclusion that it is harmless and has done a lot of good. I just can't understand why there is so much hatred towards it.

[maximus]

Jun 5, 2008 1:01:47 GMT droche said:

Actually a Roman historian whose, name escapes me, did write about the crucifixion of Christ shortly after it happened, and this is supposedly the only reference to Christ outside of the scriptures, but did provide independent corroboration of his existence. But I digress.

What you are referring to is Flavius Josephus' Antiquitates Judaicae , or Antiquities of the Jews. There are two passages reffering to Jesus, the longest one being called the Testimonium Flavianum.

To be fair, it is disputed among scholars that these two passages are genuine, as an earlier copy did not have them. It is possible that they were a later interpolation by a Christian scribe to bring the events in line with the Gospel accounts.

[droche]

Yes, Flavius Josephus was the one I was thinking of. I appreciate the additional information. If I have to refer to that in the future, I'll include that caveat.

[thevoiceofreason]

Jun 5, 2008 1:30:11 GMT @maximus said:

Jun 5, 2008 1:01:47 GMT droche said:

Actually a Roman historian whose, name escapes me, did write about the crucifixion of Christ shortly after it happened, and this is supposedly the only reference to Christ outside of the scriptures, but did provide independent corroboration of his existence. But I digress.

What you are referring to is Flavius Josephus' Antiquitates Judaicae , or Antiquities of the Jews. There are two passages reffering to Jesus, the longest one being called the Testimonium Flavianum.

To be fair, it is disputed among scholars that these two passages are genuine, as an earlier copy did not have them. It is possible that they were a later interpolation by a Christian scribe to bring the events in line with the Gospel accounts.

Yes, the Josephus Jesus records are a total forgery. Even the most die-hard Christian Apologetics admit that it is at least "partially embelleshed."

NO one during Jesus lifetime ever wrote about him. You would think that a man who performed miracle after miracle would at least be worth mention?

But I degress, if you want to believe in Jesus, the Easter Bunny or whatever other fictious being go right ahead.. As a Freemason I will also defend your right to do so.

OH, and here is a serious question of Christians. What specific Jesus do you believe in? The synoptic Jesus who is the son of God or the Trinitarian Jesus who is God who sent himself to Earth as a sacrifice to himself and then sent himself to Hell after the sacrifice?

www.godvsthebible.com

[thevoiceofreason]

prometheus said:

Simple...

You are a person who is easily mislead by others who support a conclusion which you have falsely and ignorantly reached. This is further compounded by an unbelievably strong denial system that prevents you from being capable of thinking rationally and clearly about what is truly before you.

P

Isn't that the definition of a Christian?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

www.godvsthebible.com

[bluebeard]

Well, no matter what 'type' of Christian, I would say for me the draw was & is the Love that is written about in the NT. The Dogma and different factions are all to me... superfluous.

In Light.

[maximus]

Jun 5, 2008 2:03:07 GMT thevoiceofreason said:

prometheus said:

Simple...

You are a person who is easily mislead by others who support a conclusion which you have falsely and ignorantly reached. This is further compounded by an unbelievably strong denial system that prevents you from being capable of thinking rationally and clearly about what is truly before you.

P

Isn't that the definition of a Christian?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

www.godvsthebible.com

You are certainly entitled to non-belief in a Deity, but I must ask you to please be respectful of the beliefs of others.

[thevoiceofreason]

I do believe in a Deity, just not in a man made one.
The post you quoted was bent with sarcasm. I can
be a huge smartass. I apologize.

www.godvsthebible.com

[thevoiceofreason]

Jun 5, 2008 1:59:29 GMT thevoiceofreason said:

Jun 5, 2008 1:30:11 GMT @maximus said:

What you are referring to is Flavius Josephus' Antiquitates Judaicae , or Antiquities of the Jews. There are two passages reffering to Jesus, the longest one being called the Testimonium Flavianum.

To be fair, it is disputed among scholars that these two passages are genuine, as an earlier copy did not have them. It is possible that they were a later interpolation by a Christian scribe to bring the events in line with the Gospel accounts.

Yes, the Josephus Jesus records are a total forgery. Even the most die-hard Christian Apologetics admit that it is at least "partially embelleshed."

NO one during Jesus lifetime ever wrote about him. You would think that a man who performed miracle after miracle would at least be worth mention?

But I degress, if you want to believe in Jesus, the Easter Bunny or whatever other fictious being go right ahead.. As a Freemason I will also defend your right to do so.

OH, and here is a serious question of Christians. What specific Jesus do you believe in? The synoptic Jesus who is the son of God or the Trinitarian Jesus who is God who sent himself to Earth as a sacrifice to himself and then sent himself to Hell after the sacrifice?

www.godvsthebible.com