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Post by penfold on Oct 10, 2008 10:48:05 GMT
Neither does it concern this forum, other than to serve as a topic of discussion that generates much heat, and little light!
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Post by parisfred on Oct 10, 2008 11:29:35 GMT
Not exactly the same wave if you look closely to their website, I feel that GLEA and RGLE are a close to the UGLE model and GO USA is closer to the GO or LDH model.
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Post by billmcelligott on Oct 10, 2008 13:12:44 GMT
There Fred I have a problem.
'GOUSA' was formerly 'United Grand Lodge of America', now that was close to the UGLE model and it changed, very quickly it changed to the current arrangement and adopted as it were the GOdF which kinda gave it legitimacy.
It says on the web site : The Grand Orient of the United States of America (GOUSA) is a continuation of the cosmopolitan Masonic traditions practiced by brothers such as George Washington, Benjamin Franklin and the Marquis de Lafayette. Our lineage can be traced back through the Grand Orient of France to the original speculative Grand Lodge of London that was established in 1717.
Even though GOUSA was established only in November 2007.
I have argued this out with Jeff Peace, saying that you can not establish a GL then just claim origination back to 1717. But he has his viewpoint, I have mine.
I am a part of the McLeod clan, maybe I could claim the Kingship of Scotland who knows, but I have to do more than just proclaim it.
Lineage is earned through generations of work, Respect can not be taken it has to be given, changing your mind is OK but one week it is men only then the next week it is open to men and women gives cause for concern. Was it GOdF that urged this change of rules, I don't know, but it did happen at the same time.
Everyone has the right to establish whatever they want to establish, what they do not have is the right to expect everyone else to accept it.
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imakegarb
Member
One wee, sleeket, cowran, tim'rous beastie
Posts: 3,573
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Post by imakegarb on Oct 10, 2008 18:29:51 GMT
I am a part of the McLeod clan, maybe I could claim the Kingship of Scotland who knows, but I have to do more than just proclaim it. Nope, Bro. Peter is King of Scotland. His Majesty said so. (looks around)Whoops . . . wrong forum
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Post by parisfred on Oct 10, 2008 19:49:43 GMT
my dear brother Bill, Are we sure you have all the elements to judge, Was is it a decision took in one night ? Was it so easy ? Was it done by one or two brothers ? Freemasonry is made also of decisions, one day after another, from Kilwinning to the first GL in London, to the initiation of prince Hall, to the first co-mason lodge, ...evolution anyway... time will tell I know you enough now to be sure that, just as me, you just wish the best for freemasonry ! frat:. ( and if you want to be king of Scotland it's okay for me even if I prefer the Republic )
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Post by lauderdale on Oct 10, 2008 19:53:20 GMT
Is he of the Royal House of Stuart? If not I cannot see that he could be King of Scotland.
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Post by billmcelligott on Oct 10, 2008 21:38:43 GMT
Is he of the Royal House of Stuart? If not I cannot see that he could be King of Scotland. I have permission from my Uncle Archie who is the great , great , great , great, great, great Grandson of Alexander (The Fierce) (1107-1124). I think like a Scot, I look like a Scot, I walk like a Scot therefore I claim the Crown of Scotland. My lineage is as sound as GOUSA. Plus if I were a Stuart I could lay claim to England and Ireland as well. It would be a comparable claim. My opinion is that the Grand Orient of the United States of America has every right to create a Lodge or Grand Lodge. It is no ones business but theirs. My only complaint is the claim to the lineage back to 1717. Think of all the people that worked and toiled and sacrificed over three centuries, those that are still doing so, to claim their work as yours you have to work and toil and sacrifice yourself. Not just claim it.
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Post by billmcelligott on Oct 10, 2008 21:46:34 GMT
my dear brother Bill, Are we sure you have all the elements to judge, Was is it a decision took in one night ? Was it so easy ? Was it done by one or two brothers ? Freemasonry is made also of decisions, one day after another, from Kilwinning to the first GL in London, to the initiation of prince Hall, to the first co-mason lodge, ...evolution Bro. Fred I don't remember saying I could judge. I merely point out what I see as incorrect, I supply facts to back up what I see, I just have an opinion. The members of GOUSA have a great many opinions and I do not find that they are shy in voicing them. They know what I think, I know what they think. I shall as usual defend their right to say what they think. Liberté, Equalité, Fraternité applies to UGLE also as I understand things.
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Post by billmcelligott on Oct 10, 2008 21:50:06 GMT
GOUSA does not intitiate women (yet) - quote - "The Grand Orient of the United States of America is a masculine Masonic fraternity that works together with mixed-gender and female Masonic organizations throughout the United States and Europe." - see web site - www.grandorientusa.org/home.htm - However, I seem to recollect that femine Masons can attend GOUSA meetings and I guess the same applies the other way. Yes that is right, they do accept Females in Lodge as I understood the explanation given to me.
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Post by lauderdale on Oct 11, 2008 7:15:16 GMT
Yes that is right, they do accept Females in Lodge as I understood the explanation given to me.
As does GOdF. I have sat in a GOdF Lodge (Hiram) which meets here in the UK and there were two female Masons from LDH with me at the time. GOdF does not however Initiate women into its ranks.
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Post by lauderdale on Oct 11, 2008 7:19:51 GMT
"Liberté, Equalité, Fraternité applies to UGLE also as I understand things."
You could certainly have fooled me Bro Bill, but thanks, I needed a laugh this morning as it's not going to be a good day today.
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Post by lauderdale on Oct 11, 2008 9:33:49 GMT
Perhaps I ought to have said "GOdF does not OFFICIALLY Initiate women". I have read what was posted but I understand that the Lodges in question did not have approval from their parent body to do so.
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Post by billmcelligott on Oct 11, 2008 10:07:45 GMT
"Liberté, Equalité, Fraternité applies to UGLE also as I understand things."You could certainly have fooled me Bro Bill, but thanks, I needed a laugh this morning as it's not going to be a good day today. Then my life has not been a total waste, I am pleased. But to be serious, why should you exclude UGLE if you honestly say I believe in Liberté, Equalité, Fraternité. It is not something you take, it is something you give.
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Post by lauderdale on Oct 11, 2008 10:34:41 GMT
I am sure that you, Bro Bill, believe in these three principles but the only one I could honestly attribute to UGLE in 18 years of membership thereof was Fraternité the other two were singularly absent in my experience.
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Post by corab on Oct 11, 2008 15:30:09 GMT
Actually -- and this *is* going to surprise some of you -- having had some extensive discussions with Bro:. Fred this weekend I have come to a much clearer understanding of how the GOdF works. It certainly has clarified for me the need for both a patent and a Treaty of Amity.
Fred -- it's been a week and I've been drugged out of my mind (painkillers! What DO you people think of me?!) most of the time since, so please do jump in if I don't get it quite right.
What we're looking at here, folks, is a matter of law -- French law, to be exact. Now I'm no specialist in French Corporate Law, but I do know that like Dutch law, it operates to a dual system of solicitors and notaries, and it is the notarial aspect that we're looking at here. All formal organisations must be formed and executed by deed and registered in accordance with strict rules and procedures. Insofar as I know all French masonic Orders are registered as Associations, each of them having one or more subsidiaries -- correct Fred? This could be seen as awkward, but it also has its benefits in terms of liability, duties and responsibility. A lot of organisations therefore create subsidiaries.
If I've understood correctly the Grand Orient sits at the top of a complicated organisational structure -- it acts like a holding. Below it are subsidiaries -- each Rite has its own subsidiary by which it is governed.
So, the patent was not issued by the Grand Orient itself, but by the subsidiary which governs the French Rite. It entitles the GOUSA to work the French Rite in accordance with the principles laid out by the subsidiary which governs the Rite.
The Amity Treaty was signed between the two Grand Orients -- so at a higher and completely different level than the patent.
Although the Grand Orient may have a share in the subsidiary responsible for the French Rite, it is a separate legal entity, and therefore the Patent and the Treaty are two separate agreements. Without having read both agreements I cannot judge the degree of practical independence, but in theory it could be possible for the Patent to be terminated (for example if the GOUSA wished to work a different rite), whilst the Amity Treaty could continue to exist. The other way round would, I imagine, be more complicated.
I would imagine that the subsidiary governing the Rite would have had to consult with the Grand Orient before issuing its Patent. Having obtained that permission, it issued the Patent, which made it possible for the Grand Orient to formally recognise the GOUSA as a Sovereign Body, regular in accordance with its standards.
Brandt, Fred -- is that more or less an accurate reflection of the situation?
What me and my inquisitive brain would like to know, though -- the Grand Orient has recognised the GOUSA as a Sovereign masonic body by way of the Treaty, but does the GOUSA work the Rite under the auspices of the GOdF subsidiary that governs the French Rite, or has it been given full control to work the Rite under its own auspices?
Tres frat.,
Cora
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Post by billmcelligott on Oct 11, 2008 15:55:39 GMT
It sounds right to me Cora, I think one of the problems we, in shall we call it Traditional Freemasonry is, we think of the various Grand Lodges the same as we experience in our own. It does not seem to be so.
Having read the development of GOdF it would seem more like a Co Operatve.
France I believe has some 30 plus Grand Lodges , Italy I am told has 52. In the UK we have 1 for England 1 for Scotland and 1 for Ireland [The Home Grand Lodges] who work in concert and 2 minnows [RGLE and UGLAE], Plus the Co Masonic and Female GL's.
In the UK there is no jockeying for position as the dominant GL. So there is no pressure for UGLE to make any consessions to anyone it rules by general acceptance of its membership.
Having said this, I have to say I have never been spoken to by any official or Grand Lodge officer in Lodge or out of Lodge for anything I have said or done. So I do not agree with the criticism that there is dominance. I have been very outspoken and in deed I have raised objections and they have been addressed. I do not however always get my own way, I accept that no is no. That is what I signed up for.
It would seem that GOdF is completely fluid and seems to be constantly changing. Would you say that is accurate Bro. Fred.
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Post by corab on Oct 11, 2008 19:40:01 GMT
It sounds right to me Cora, I think one of the problems we, in shall we call it Traditional Freemasonry is, we think of the various Grand Lodges the same as we experience in our own. It does not seem to be so. Indeed -- not even when looking at it from the perspective of an Order which has its roots in France. I think there's a lesson in that, somewhere. Something about perspective -- the architect's skill. "It's masonry, Jim, but not as we know it!". We simply cannot presume to judge whether something is right and proper without understanding its background; what traditions it is steeped in. S&F, Cora
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Post by maximus on Oct 11, 2008 19:41:35 GMT
French law...that explains a lot. No offense Bro. Fred.
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Post by parisfred on Oct 11, 2008 21:17:30 GMT
I'll have to read again about the legal part .... You can say that you have a philosophical lineage to Epicure or Plato even if you're not a member of it's family or greek or even if you live in 2008. About the lineage, it's easy to understand : they refer to the masonic perspective of the 18th century, of the GL of London but also to what was freemasonry in Europe at this moment. they want to follow this path not the path of the post union rituals. from what was freemasonry around 1750 we can find 3 paths : - the british path mainly social gathering and ceremony no problem with the church , - the european one philosphical debates under the permanent attack of the catholic church - and a christian path ( rectified ritual, swedish system...) Architect, what you call a mess is not a big problem on the long term : the future candidates will know that they'll have choice. Choice between various GLs or GOs that recognises each other, between various rituals, between men, women and mixed lodge. Here no one can say that ALL Freemasons are sexist, liberal; bigot , leftist or still living in the middle age. If the mess is being atheist and working emulation, if the mess is to visit LDH UK on saturday and rectified male only lodge on monday : It's ok for me ! ;D Fraternally, .
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imakegarb
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One wee, sleeket, cowran, tim'rous beastie
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Post by imakegarb on Oct 11, 2008 21:56:34 GMT
If the mess is being atheist and working emulation, if the mess is to visit LDH UK on saturday and rectified male only lodge on monday : It's ok for me ! ;D I've seen it myself. It is not a "mess" as that word is generally understood. It is, in fact, a Masonic paradise. A far better example of a Masonic "mess" is more readily had here closer to home.
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