Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Jul 13, 2008 6:51:21 GMT
Indeed, we are under illusion. The difference is that some, like John Locke, were and are trying to clear away that illusion, which is like rubbish in the way of knowledge. While others, like Russell, appear to want to add more rubbish and more layers of illusion, by uncritically believing whatever fantasy pops into their heads (perhaps Russell has overdosed on blue pills).
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Post by whistler on Jul 13, 2008 9:24:53 GMT
Well Tamrin congatulations you seem have to out rubbished the Waste Master.
Illusion and imagination are the products of intent -
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Post by hollandr on Jul 13, 2008 10:25:36 GMT
Here is an earlier version of the blue pill and the red pill The image has interesting Masonic undertones as we recall that the starry firmament is the covering of a Masonic lodge. In this case the man does not need a ladder but looks straight through I wonder whether humans have some innate abilities to achieve sight of the greater realities
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Jul 13, 2008 10:35:55 GMT
Well Tamrin congatulations you seem have to out rubbished the Waste Master. As the Waste Master presumably removes rubbish, I gladly accept the compliment. Illusion and imagination are the products of intent - And reality is what is.
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Post by lauderdale on Jul 13, 2008 12:04:30 GMT
I wonder whether humans have some innate abilities to achieve sight of the greater realities"
Indeed we do Bro Russell, some have achieved the use of them via prayer and deep contemplaton, visionary saints such as John of the Cross, Teresa of Avila, Richeldis, etc. Others have achieved such a state of heightened consciousness by fasting or other denials of the physical and the mundane, such as St Anthony of Egypt. The Native Americans are often said to have achieved a transcendental state in some cases by dancing, as is also said of the "Whirling Dervishes"
It is of course difficult for those in cultures such as our Euro-American mechanistic one where everything gets reduced to a few mathematical equations or chemical reactions and people claiming Mystic experiences are usually mocked as being mentally ill ,not revered as Sages as in other Cultures of the Middle and Far East.
Changing the subject slighty to the Apron the image of which is posted quite a few times on this thread. I assume this is what remained after the fabric had rooted away or been eaten by insects or whatever and is the waistband and frontal which being of a metallic substance resisted such attacks? I also ask if the shape of the front panel indicated that it is to cover the male genitalia both to shield it and perhaps to protect those involved in the Rituals from its energies? Bear in mind the Ritual Duty of the Pharaoh in some Ancient Egyptian Rites. Bro Russell, I would value your comments on these points.
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Post by maximus on Jul 13, 2008 17:00:53 GMT
It is of course difficult for those in cultures such as our Euro-American mechanistic one where everything gets reduced to a few mathematical equations or chemical reactions and people claiming Mystic experiences are usually mocked as being mentally ill ,not revered as Sages as in other Cultures of the Middle and Far East. We must use caution when claims are made of "mystical" experiences. What Bro. Phillip and I are advocating is that such experiences be examined in the light of reason, rather than being accepted at face value. That such states of consciousness are achievable is not in question, but rather, that such experiences should be uncritically accepted. Our primary, indeed, only means of preception is our brain, and is a result of the chemical and electrical processes inherent in that organ. It is likely that altered states and the "visions" we experience are due to changes in brain wave patterns, coupled with chemical triggers. Are our "mystical" experiences truely a seperate reality of other realms? We can treat them as such, or understand them as phisio-psychological phenomena. As to the West's scientific-mechanistic approach to reality, no one can deny that it has brought great benifit to the world that far outweighs any detriment. One can have "mystical" visions while enjoying nice, cool A/C, rather than sweating in a jungle or freezing on a remote mountain-top.
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Post by lauderdale on Jul 13, 2008 18:44:47 GMT
"As to the West's scientific-mechanistic approach to reality, no one can deny that it has brought great benefit to the world that far outweighs any detriment. One can have "mystical" visions while enjoying nice, cool A/C, rather than sweating in a jungle or freezing on a remote mountain-top."
Really, there are plenty who would doubt that Western Science has been all that beneficial when one looks not only to some of the awful weapon systems we have invented but to the exploitation we have inflicted on races we have considered to be inferior both as regards their raw materials and their people. Imperialism still exists though they call it Globalisation these days, the Coca-Colonisation of the World.
As to air conditioning I imagine that some of the greatest mystics come from lands where basic clean water would be a blessing, never mind air-con units or other such luxuries.
Analyse, dissect and reverse-engineer anything you wish. Like the present Pope I feel we have lost much of the "Wonderment" at the works of The Almighty and have become poorer as a result.
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Post by bluebeard on Jul 13, 2008 19:50:04 GMT
Reminds me of the Symbol of the circle with a dot inside and the Saints John on each side. If you replace our beloved Saints John with Aristotle and Plato then I think your answer might start to appear. For me, I had to be firmly grounded in Objective reality before I started taking steps in more subtle Mystical states. BTW Russel, that is one of my favorite pictures :-)
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Jul 13, 2008 20:44:17 GMT
We must use caution when claims are made of "mystical" experiences. What Bro. Philip and I are advocating is that such experiences be examined in the light of reason, rather than being accepted at face value. That such states of consciousness are achievable is not in question, but rather, that such experiences should be uncritically accepted. Our primary, indeed, only means of preception is our brain, and is a result of the chemical and electrical processes inherent in that organ. It is likely that altered states and the "visions" we experience are due to changes in brain wave patterns, coupled with chemical triggers. Are our "mystical" experiences truely a seperate reality of other realms? We can treat them as such, or understand them as phisio-psychological phenomena. By analogy, we lead off with our left foot (intuition / imagination) and follow-up with our right (reason): Were we to continue with the left, leaving the right behind, we would soon come a cropper.
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Post by hollandr on Jul 13, 2008 22:17:06 GMT
> I assume this is what remained after the fabric had rooted away or been eaten by insects or whatever and is the waistband and frontal which being of a metallic substance resisted such attacks?
That is how it appeared to me
> I also ask if the shape of the front panel indicated that it is to cover the male genitalia both to shield it and perhaps to protect those involved in the Rituals from its energies?
Quite so, although I would not restrict that to males and it may be better to think in terms of chakras.
The apron is the "badge of Innocence and the bond of Friendship" by insulating the lower chakras from the lodge where those chakras are not innocent, and having kept the impure energies from lodge room provides the basis for friendship rather than rivalry
I expect that the egyptian apron used linen as that was used in the mysteries.
I have found sheepskin to be a good insulator of energies. I always sleep on one when travelling as I am sensitive to artificial mattresses.
And as I have said elsewhere, connecting to that apron gave me an immediate experience of the egyptian raising. And it is quite similar to this from the Mysteries of Isis (the Widow)
"Understand that I approached the bounds of death, I trod the threshold of Proserpine, and after that I was ravished through all the elements, I returned to my proper place; about midnight I saw the sun brightly shine; I saw likewise the gods celestial and the gods infernal, before whom I presented myself and worshiped them."
Cheers
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Post by hollandr on Jul 13, 2008 22:26:06 GMT
>we lead off with our left foot (intuition / imagination)
Leaving aside the moralising about the left foot, this raises the question of whether the intuition and imagination are the same.
For example, is it possible to have an intuition without an image?
I suspect that the earlier stages of intuition are largely without images until the sense of sight is developed on those levels of existence.
Perhaps it is worth noting the distinction between instinct and intuition. Long ago I was in a community meeting and one fellow was talking and said "my intuition tells me". He paused slightly and made a sweeping movement with both arms ending with his hands on his solar plexus. There were glances exchanged amongst some of the older members who understood that the speaker was actually experiencing emotional instinct.
Is it possible to imagine without intuition?
I suspect so. Having watched some afternoon TV I dare say most children can imagine playing with a wide range of advertised toys.
So is it possible to use imaging to access intuition?
How would that be done?
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Jul 14, 2008 8:20:52 GMT
And as I have said elsewhere, The apron was an oblong - a little longer than is used in some lodges - with long ties and a gold braid border. The central fabric (linen?) was missing but otherwise it was easily recognisable and almost identical to the 1918 apron used for my raising
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Post by hollandr on Jul 14, 2008 8:39:04 GMT
What? No photo?
Never mind! I will use my imagination
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Jul 14, 2008 8:51:12 GMT
Is this what you "saw"?Or this?Happy now?
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Post by whistler on Jul 14, 2008 9:39:08 GMT
Well Tamrin congatulations you seem have to out rubbished the Waste Master. As the Waste Master presumably removes rubbish, I gladly accept the compliment. Illusion and imagination are the products of intent - And reality is what is. That is the point "Reality" is an individuals perception. and is nothing to do with a state of being
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Jul 14, 2008 9:44:10 GMT
That is the point "Reality" is an individuals perception. and is nothing to do with a state of being No, the point is, there IS an objective reality, which we perceive subjectively. To the extent that our subjective perceptions differ from that objective reality we are — wrong!
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Jul 14, 2008 9:47:02 GMT
That is the point "Reality" is an individuals perception. and is nothing to do with a state of being Seems like you are making a statement about your perception of an objective reality
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Post by hollandr on Jul 14, 2008 11:08:57 GMT
The nature of reality and the testing of it (other than voting) is an interesting topic - particularly as scientific proof (rather than corroboration) is rather difficult to achieve - even disproof is not so straightforward
Perhaps the testing of reality could be a separate thread - just in case there is more to be discovered about imagination
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Jul 14, 2008 11:34:21 GMT
even disproof is not so straightforward Sometimes it is!
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Post by maximus on Jul 14, 2008 15:03:37 GMT
Really, there are plenty who would doubt that Western Science has been all that beneficial when one looks not only to some of the awful weapon systems we have invented but to the exploitation we have inflicted on races we have considered to be inferior both as regards their raw materials and their people. Anything can be made into a weapon. One can kill with a No.2 pencil. Herbs that can heal, can kill as well. People throughout the world are quick to adopt and utilise Western technology and products, because they see the benifit to be derived from thier use. Unlike some totalitarian regimes that force compliance, we do not force people to use Western products at the point of a gun. Some regimes, on the other hand, utilise mysticism, coupled with military force, to keep thier people under control, knowing that the free exchange of goods also means the free exchange of ideas. That might lead to strange Western ideas such as "Liberty" and "Equality." Can't be having none of that nonsense, now, can we? Then the mystics need to get up off thier asses and teach the people how to boil thier water before drinking it, and draw it from upstream of cattle and human waste products. Or maybe apply a little Westen technology toward a water treatment plant and electricity. "We" is a rather broad generalisation. Remember Bro., that we are "works of the almighty" as well, and any works that we create from the raw materials of nature are no less a miracle in spite of our human status.
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