Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
|
Post by Tamrin on Jul 14, 2008 20:42:23 GMT
Well said!
|
|
|
Post by whistler on Jul 15, 2008 7:25:02 GMT
- just in case there is more to be discovered about imagination I am not sure when or if imagination occurs - often when something occurs that is beyond ones mental reference it gets labeled "imagination" When people encounter a spook, or any sort of psychic happening for the first time they will invoke imagination as an explanation.
|
|
Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
|
Post by Tamrin on Jul 15, 2008 8:29:57 GMT
I am not sure when or if imagination occurs That is one huge deficit!?
|
|
|
Post by hollandr on Jul 15, 2008 9:50:37 GMT
>I am not sure when or if imagination occurs - often when something occurs that is beyond ones mental reference it gets labeled "imagination"
Often in English a process is turned into a noun and then conceptually manipulated as if a separate object. This is sometimes called reification (literally making a thing)
For example people lose things (a process) but it is called a loss (object).
In this case the imaging processes are reified as imagination.
It may be better to return to the natural process and examine how images arise, from where and what useful explorations can occur.
I recall leading a guided meditation about 20 years ago for Tai Chi students. It was a very structured process to ensure that each arrived at the same frequencies (subplanes) and undertook the same visualisation.
The group was about 25 and as I looked around the room I could see a small image cloud formed in front of and touching each forehead. When I zoomed my sight in, I could see what each was seeing in their "mind's eye".
After the meditation we went around the circle with each saying what they had experienced and sometimes asking questions about what they saw. Since I had seen it too, I was able to assist them to understand what they were seeing.
If we to reify that experience we might call it active imagination. But who would learn anything from that labelling?
|
|
Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
|
Post by Tamrin on Jul 15, 2008 10:02:41 GMT
We imagine real scenarios all the time: When we plan; when we devise; when we think what to say; etc.
|
|
|
Post by maximus on Jul 15, 2008 20:45:06 GMT
In this case the imaging processes are reified as imagination. The process of imaging in one's mind is imagination. The root of both words is image. Images arise as the result of the application of the natural processes of conceptualisation inherent in our brain structure. We are able to associate and correlate information and combine them to create a new image or idea. One could call the experence "apple," would that then change the nature of the experience? No. Did anyone else "see" what you saw? If not, how sure are you that it was "real," or "imaginative?"
|
|
|
Post by hollandr on Jul 15, 2008 22:09:43 GMT
>Did anyone else "see" what you saw? If not, how sure are you that it was "real," or "imaginative?"
One of the experiences that encouraged those in my guided meditation group was that after a few months they would routinely see beings and events before I mentioned them.
And sometimes what they saw was complementary in the sense of seeing what was obviously the same event from a different perspective.
This has happened regularly over the decades
Of course seeing the same event or beings does not demonstrate they are real - any more than seeing an event on the TV demonstrates that it is real.
Determination of reality is a bit harder than consensus viewing
|
|
|
Post by whistler on Jul 16, 2008 5:03:39 GMT
I am not sure when or if imagination occurs That is one huge deficit!? Ok Tamrin, you know I am quite dumb with some of these wordy things. Is there any difference between imagine and think?
|
|
Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
|
Post by Tamrin on Jul 16, 2008 8:11:41 GMT
That is one huge deficit!? Ok Tamrin, you know I am quite dumb with some of these wordy things. Is there any difference between imagine and think?Imagination is a category of thought: As I thought most knew and as Bro. Maximus very precisely elucidated, " The process of imaging in one's mind is imagination. The root of both words is image."
|
|
Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
|
Post by Tamrin on Jul 16, 2008 9:05:46 GMT
Imagination is a category of thought: As I thought most knew and as Bro. Maximus very precisely elucidated, " The process of imaging in one's mind is imagination. The root of both words is image." Does this mean " I imagine I will have steak for dinner" and " I think I will have steak for dinner" Means the same thing. Not quite, but to a degree: The more a thought moves beyond 'steak' simply being an word on a shopping list, to picturing the meal; considering alternatives; planning its preparation; and anticipating its taste, the more the thought becomes an imaginative thought.
|
|
|
Post by hollandr on Jul 16, 2008 10:17:26 GMT
>Imagination is a category of thought
I am not sure that is true.
I recall years ago driving at night in the rain on a major urban road with lots of sodium lights and lots of reflection.
In the medium distance there was something on the road but I could not make it out. As I got closer I still could not see what it was. Then suddenly I realised it was a horse and immediately I could see it clearly - knowing which patches of light and reflection belonged to the horse and which did not
So that process of imaging was not completed until I knew what I was looking at. But surely the imaging was in the brain and not the mind?
More generally the sense of sight (the basis of imaging) exists on every subplane not just the mental subplanes
|
|
Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
|
Post by Tamrin on Jul 16, 2008 10:52:10 GMT
I am not sure that the above is a particularly useful account of imagination.
What point are you trying to make?
|
|
Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
|
Post by Tamrin on Jul 16, 2008 11:00:46 GMT
|
|
|
Post by hollandr on Jul 16, 2008 11:49:10 GMT
>Imagination is the ability to form mental images
That is the essence: are images only mental?
I suggest not
For example, are the simple beings with eyes that form images without a mental process?
What about a spider?
If images can exist without mental functioning, is imagination restricted to those who assert they can use mental substance?
In the hindu tradition, all of the senses (including vision) exist at all levels of existence (planes and subplanes). I would agree with that.
In my youth I was capable of astral imaging at distance but that was taken away and eventually I was able do mental imaging at a distance
|
|
Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
|
Post by Tamrin on Jul 16, 2008 12:13:25 GMT
Arguably, at any level, imagination is the forming of images. One could say that sculpting is in itself (rather than in the planning) an act of concrete imagination or that developing an ominous story line or music score is an act of psychic (emotional) imagination. However, the term 'imagination' is typically used (dare I say, 'by definition') in relation to the act of forming mental images by means of thought.
|
|
Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
|
Post by Tamrin on Jul 16, 2008 15:10:23 GMT
Perhaps we should bear-in-mind that this further pointless episode in Russell's inane series of 'What is...?' threads appears to have been prompted by: >Russell has an overactive imagination which he is inclined to confuse with reality.
Or perhaps my imagination is underactive and I am still learning how to use it. Certainly I have become more visual in recent decades.
|
|
|
Post by hollandr on Jul 16, 2008 22:11:17 GMT
>Arguably, at any level, imagination is the forming of images.
I take it that that is an agreement that imaging is not confined to mental processes.
I suggest however that there are more source of images than internal formation. For example, sometimes groups see the same image - e.g. at places of pilgrimage or haunted places
And having located an image, what then?
Does the image need testing for connection to reality?
To what uses can images be put?
|
|
|
Post by whistler on Jul 16, 2008 22:42:49 GMT
Hi Maximus Ref Then the mystics need to get up off thier asses and teach the people how to boil thier water before drinking it, and draw it from upstream of cattle and human waste products. Or maybe apply a little Western technology toward a water treatment plant and electricity.Western TechnologySaw this video. In a remarkable about-face in New Plymouth's dioxin debate, advisers to the Ministry of Health have admitted the most significant exposure to the deadly dioxin contaminant was pre-1970. That means some people's exposure to dioxin is far higher than previously put forward by the Ministry. Residents and former residents who lived under the plume of the Ivan Watkins Dow chemical factory in New Plymouth learnt of the new information at a heated public meeting last night. It was in October last year that the TV3 documentary 'Let Us Spray' first claimed there were flaws and data was misrepresented in a Ministry of Health-commissioned blood serum study. Earlier this year The Ministry of Health told residents there were concerns expressed in the media that mistakes in the report had the effect of minimising the residents' exposure, but added that the conclusions were valid. But it turns out they can't so once again the Minster of Health is left red faced over the dioxin debate. This new information comes in the midst of a consultation process for a health care package for dioxin affected residents. But for some residents who have been fighting this issue for decades it is all too little late. Then there is Aspartame www.mercola.com/article/aspartame/hidden_dangers.htm Yeah Right
I think I would rather have a little cattle poo, or the bird poo off the roof that ends up in our water tank in my water and Aspartame in my drinks- Than and Aspartame in my drink and Western Dioxin.
|
|
Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
|
Post by Tamrin on Jul 16, 2008 22:48:57 GMT
>Arguably, at any level, imagination is the forming of images.
I take it that that is an agreement that imaging is not confined to mental processes.
I suggest however that there are more source of images than internal formation. For example, sometimes groups see the same image - e.g. at places of pilgrimage or haunted places
And having located an image, what then?
Does the image need testing for connection to reality?
To what uses can images be put?
|
|
Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
|
Post by Tamrin on Jul 16, 2008 22:51:01 GMT
I think I would rather have a little cattle poo, or the bird poo off the roof that ends up in our water tank in my water and Aspartame in my drinks- Than and Aspartame in my drink and Western Dioxin. If you are talking health outcome, I suggest you look at life expectancies.
|
|