|
Post by billmcelligott on Sept 15, 2008 21:37:22 GMT
I would like to ask the question.
Do you generally feel there is something mystical or religious about a Masonic Lodge when it is open for business?
Or
Do you, like me, look at it like a training tool to create a better you?
I always thought Theron had is about right, when he said, "its not about me changing them, its about me changing me."
When you walk into your Lodge do you look for some form of magical experience ?
|
|
|
Post by hollandr on Sept 15, 2008 22:16:28 GMT
Bill
On occasions when the lodge opens I have seen another mosaic pavement appear - first as a point of light in the centre of the floor then it expands across the lodge room. At the closing the process is reversed.
Depending on the context the pavement might be pale blue and white or gold and white.
Perhaps the Masonic temple is indeed from East to West and from North to South, from the centre of the Earth to the Stars.
|
|
|
Post by lauderdale on Sept 15, 2008 22:19:16 GMT
"When you walk into your Lodge do you look for some form of magical experience ? " = Bro Bill Mc Elligott.
Since December 2006 most definitely yes! Prior to that it very occasionally happened, now it occurs far more often but not every time. In a way the experience is like that I enjoy when visiting a High Anglican, Anglo Catholic, Greek or Russian Orthodox or Roman Catholic Church, one where the Traditional Forms of Liturgy and Church Decor/Architecture/Music are maintained. It is a spiritual/mystical experience and I accept not something to which everyone is attuned nor would wish to encounter. It may not work for everyone but it does work for me.
No disrespect to the dead, but I never did have any affinity for the late Bro Theron's catch phrase.
|
|
imakegarb
Member
One wee, sleeket, cowran, tim'rous beastie
Posts: 3,573
|
Post by imakegarb on Sept 15, 2008 23:32:36 GMT
When you walk into your Lodge do you look for some form of magical experience ? I don't look for it. It often finds me, not withstanding
|
|
|
Post by maximus on Sept 15, 2008 23:38:29 GMT
When you walk into your Lodge do you look for some form of magical experience ? No. But that is not why I joined Freemasonry. I had already had this experience in G:.D:./R:.R:. et A:.C:. and Wicca. Tempered, I might add, by the application of psychology and philosophy, to prevent delusion.
|
|
|
Post by maat on Sept 15, 2008 23:52:21 GMT
I would like to ask the question. Do you generally feel there is something mystical or religious about a Masonic Lodge when it is open for business? Or Do you, like me, look at it like a training tool to create a better you? I have seen it written, that the whole idea of Masonry is to lead man gently from the outer world of matter to the inner world of spirit. So it is a training tool. Maat
|
|
|
Post by billmcelligott on Sept 16, 2008 8:12:15 GMT
I am, what I would classify as, a 'Logical thinker'. I look, I listen and hopefully I learn.
Let's just take one point from the first degree to explain what I am trying to communicate.
Now here we have a specific instruction drawn from the emblem of a working tool.
This fits with the concept of enlightenment.
It paints a picture which is hard to detract from and difficult to misunderstand. Education means you understand the world around you.
So this seems to me clear and precise and requires very little in the way of invention or embellishment to be understood by all. You certainly does not need to be a particularly well educated person to understand this simple concept.
So I would like to extend my question.
Is it Freemasonry that projects the experiences you are relating or having, or is it you that brings those experiences into Freemasonry ?
On the one hand it is an individual experience, on the other there is something within Freemasonry that holds a mystical power of some kind.
|
|
|
Post by lauderdale on Sept 16, 2008 8:54:20 GMT
Bro Bill, "He that hath an ear to hear, let him hear". You may well be familiar with those words from Ritual.
To me properly performed Masonic Ritual acts as a lens or a tuner . It picks up and concentrates those energies both emitted by those present and attracted by the work being performed. The Temple often has this property or is some cases alas it doesn't. Brighton and Clerkenwell had it, Sindlesham in Berkshire never did. Hexagon House in Surbiton, The Chapel at Tekels Park in Camberley and Edmund Kell Church in Southampton certainly have it.
Of course some, through no fault of their own, simply cannot receive such "signals", similar in some ways to a little battery operated radio which will not pick up the Ham transmitting on Short Wave in Tahiti whereas the complicated Triple Conversion Communications Receiver with a proper aerial system will.
It is similar in my mind to the types of Church, (both the Religions mentioned and Traditional Building, Vestments, Liturgy etc).
Now I cannot prove this nor will I even attempt to. In a way it is like Holy Communion. All than can be proved is that there is a wafer of bread and a sip of wine. To the believer such as myself there is much more than that but no meter or sensor will pick it up, no scope will display it to the satisfaction of the scientist or the sceptic.
I have made a value judgement as regards Bro Russell and his various sightings and experiences. I have not his level of "sight" but from what I have myself seen and encountered over the years both inside Freemasonry and without, I am prepared to believe him. Others must follow their own Light in such matters.
|
|
|
Post by hollandr on Sept 16, 2008 10:18:01 GMT
>Is it Freemasonry that projects the experiences you are relating or having, or is it you that brings those experiences into Freemasonry ?
That question rather distinguishes the human from Freemasonry. What if Freemasonry is actually an example of the pattern that links the human to the greater Creation?
In that case the brethren (under favourable conditions) act out their own spiritual and human nature in the ritual - thus both options may be true at the same time
|
|
|
Post by billmcelligott on Sept 17, 2008 7:52:40 GMT
Well is this not what I am asking ?
If when entering a Masonic Lodge a person experiences some form of mystical sight or feeling, it indicates that Freemasonry is an Entity not just a tool.
It implies that there is a conjoining of Human and Freemasonry.
I say they are separate and Freemasonry should be used as a tool to hone the individual.
It seems to me that what you Russell and Steve have said in particular gives Freemasonry a God like purpose. Now there is nothing wrong with this, if I am reading you right. I just dont agree that it should be like this.
Its my practical brain you see, a chair is a chair, is a chair.
|
|
|
Post by lauderdale on Sept 17, 2008 8:03:07 GMT
"It seems to me that what you Russell and Steve have said in particular gives Freemasonry a God like purpose. Now there is nothing wrong with this, if I am reading you right. I just don't agree that it should be like this."
I would not presume to speak for Bro Russell, but I have no problem with that Bro Bill. There is no "correct answer" there is no "wrong one" . As often said we all get out of Freemasonry and put into it different things.
Good! No nasty arguments, no intellectual nor academic put downs, no sarcasm, no silly images of dubious relevance repetitively posted. That is how it should be. To disagree amicably in the spirit of Brotherhood.
Have a good day, Bro Bill!
|
|
|
Post by hollandr on Sept 17, 2008 9:23:48 GMT
>gives Freemasonry a God like purpose
As I have asked on other occasions: Does Masonry belong to the GAOTU or to (half of) humanity?
If the former then we may well see the divine plan working through Masonry
|
|
|
Post by whistler on Sept 17, 2008 9:33:20 GMT
I would like to ask the question. Do you generally feel there is something mystical or religious about a Masonic Lodge when it is open for business? Or Do you, like me, look at it like a training tool to create a better you? I always thought Theron had is about right, when he said, "its not about me changing them, its about me changing me." When you walk into your Lodge do you look for some form of magical experience ? When I walk into a Masonic Ceremony I am coming to work, I am going to work with all the entities and facilities seen and unseen, to assist in smoothing ashlars, both my own and my Brothers. to assist in spreading light to mankind. To continue the exciting journey and learning that the wisdom hidden in Freemasonry gives. Is there magic in Freemasonry - well for a start the root of the word Mason is in Magic. But it is only Magic to those who don't wish to see more - will only see what they wish. Bill as a suggestion leave "Logic" at the door of the lodge Logic only serves as Blinkers. Let your senses be free - you may be very very surprised
|
|
|
Post by hollandr on Sept 17, 2008 22:05:40 GMT
>Education means you understand the world around you.
Technically education come from the latin : Educo - I draw out (as in "ductile")
Thus education is about drawing out what is within the student.
But too often the student is only trained - to think along pre-existent (train) tracks
|
|
|
Post by maat on Sept 17, 2008 23:11:14 GMT
You may find this series of videos quite helpful with regards to your question Bill. tinyurl.com/5nopnmMaat
|
|
|
Post by billmcelligott on Sept 18, 2008 11:17:22 GMT
You see this is where I find the problem, a statement that re inforces the concept which I can not find to be accurate, so I searched: www.answers.com/topic/masonOne who builds or works with stone or brick. Mason A Freemason. To build of or strengthen with masonry. A person who is skilled in the craft of building with units of natural or artificial mineral products, such as bricks, stones, and cinderblocks, that are usually bonded or cemented with mortar to similar units. www.biblical-baby-names.com/meaning-of-mason.htmlThe people of Tyre were specially skilled in architecture. Hiram, the king of Tyre sent masons and carpenters to build a house for David. These masons later built the Temple at Jerusalem during the reign of Solomon. (1 Chr. 22:2) Masons were also called upon to repair the Temple during the reigns of kings Josiah and Joash. www.babynamescountry.com/meanings/Mason.htmlThe French name Mason means - stone worker www.thefreedictionary.com/mason[Middle English, from Old French maçon, masson, of Germanic origin; see mag- in Indo-European roots.] www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/MasonMain Entry: ma·son Pronunciation: \ˈmā-sən\ Function: noun Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, of Germanic origin; akin to Old English macian to make Date: 13th century 1: a skilled worker who builds by laying units of substantial material (as stone or brick) I can find no attachment of Mason to the word magic. I am sorry but my 'Logic' requires explanation and this does not give that. Of course if others feel something I do not then fine no problem to me, I find Magic in the words of my Faith , but I can not find Faith in your Magic. It is a personal thing I suppose.
|
|
|
Post by lauderdale on Sept 18, 2008 11:37:26 GMT
"It is a personal thing I suppose. "
Exactly Bro Bill, that sums it up nicely.
I too have yet to see any dictionary entry which gives "magic" or "magician" as a meaning for "Mason", but they could I suppose come from the same linguistic root far back.
For me my religion which is the more Ritualistic , Ceremonial and Sacerdotal side of Christianity is nicely complimented by my type of Freemasonry which is Ritualistic, Ceremonial and Esoteric. There is synergy between the two and no conflict I am glad to say.
|
|
|
Post by corab on Sept 18, 2008 12:38:44 GMT
Hi Bill, I would like to ask the question. Do you generally feel there is something mystical or religious about a Masonic Lodge when it is open for business? Or Do you, like me, look at it like a training tool to create a better you? You present the two as if they are mutually exclusive, and from where I am standing, they are not. So, my answer is: all of the above. No, but that doesn't stop it from happening. It is with freemasonry as it is with life: we don't get what we want; we are given what we need to fulfil our purpose. S&F, Cora
|
|
|
Post by hollandr on Sept 18, 2008 12:39:47 GMT
Magic is really an adjective - what a magus (plural magi) does is magic by definition
If no magi are present in a lodge then it is certainly not magic in the literal sense
But perhaps in ancient times magi did have lodges
|
|
|
Post by billmcelligott on Sept 18, 2008 21:31:38 GMT
I do not say for one minute that my perception is better or indeed right. I am saying I find it contradictory to say that it does more than I see, what I see is wonderful and the experience works for many.
Well I suppose I did, it seems to me to be so.
It is either Mystical or it is not, the perception that it is for some and not for others seems a bit too far for me, We could all join the a Tennis Club and some will find it mystical and most will not. The question would be, would the same individuals find the tennis club to be Magical. Now that would prove something.
It it is Freemasonry as an entity that contains some mystical thread then I have to try and understand why only a few feel it to be so.
For example if were carrying out clinical trials the odds would be very low in favour of Freemasonry being Magical or Mystical I would put forward.
|
|