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Post by lauderdale on Sept 18, 2008 22:05:24 GMT
This reminds me of the famous words of Queen Elizabeth I.
During the reign of her sister Mary Tudor she was in a precarious situation and some would have had her executed. Roman Catholic Bishop Bonner tried to catch her out and asked "Madam what do you consider the Sacrament of Holy Communion to be?" Elizabeth replied,
"Christ was the Word that spake it, he took the bread and break it.That which He doth make it, I in my heart partake it"
It is the same to me with Freemasonry. You Bro Bill consider it to be one thing, I find it to be something different, we are both correct as regards ourselves, and that is for me enough.
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Post by maat on Sept 18, 2008 22:40:47 GMT
PHREE MESSEN = Children of Light ?? From ANCIENT AND MODERN INITIATION by Max Heindel "In the first place it is worthy of notice that this divinely designed Tabernacle was given to a chosen people, who were to build it from freewill offerings given out of the fullness of their hearts. Herein is a particular lesson, for the divine pattern of the path of progress is never given to anyone who has not first made a covenant with God that he will serve Him and is wiling to offer up his heart's blood in a life of service without self-seeking The term "Mason" is derived from PHREE MESSEN, which is an Egyptian term meaning "Children of Light." In the parlance of Masonry, God is spoken of as the Grand Architect. ARCHE is a Greek word which means "Primordial substance." TEKTON is the Greek name for builder. It is said that Joseph, the father of Jesus, was a "CARPENTER," but the Greek word is TEKTON--builder. It is also said that Jesus was a "tekton," a builder. Thus every true mystic Freemason is a child of light according to the divine pattern given him by our Father in Heaven. To this end he dedicates his whole heart, soul, and mind. It is, or should be, his aspiration to be "greatest in the kingdom of God," and therefore he must be THE SERVANT OF ALL. www.phoenixmasonry.org/ancient_and_modern_initiation.htmThus the colors on the veils of the Temple, both at the gate and at the entrance of the Tabernacle, showed that this structure was designed for a period previous to the time of Christ, for it had only the blue and the scarlet colors of the Father and the Holy Spirit together with their mixture, purple. But white is the synthesis of all colors, and therefore the yellow Christ ray was hidden in that part of the veil until in the fullness of time Christ should appear to emancipate us from the ordinances that bind, and initiate us into the full liberty of Sons of God, Sons of Light, Children of Light, Phree Messen or Mystic Masons.Read the entire book on the link above. Maat
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Post by corab on Sept 18, 2008 22:54:07 GMT
It is either Mystical or it is not... I don't think it works that way. Mysticism is an experience, and as such it is not subject to the limitations of what is and is not. It cannot be proven, and it need not be proven, because it only matters to the person experiencing it. I am gradually beginning to form an understanding -- my own -- of freemasonry as I know it being the result of moral, philosophical and mystical principles being grafted onto that most excellent vehicle of ancient operative masonry. And as I write this the great bronze doors of the Grand Temple at FMH come to mind -- many different guilds of artisans participated in the building of the Temple; from stone cutters to architects, from wood workers to weavers, from builders to sculpters. Their specialisations were all part of the great work. Likewise so, in a slightly less tangible way, does freemasonry today offer room to those different experiences or guilds: the mystical, the down-to-earth, the analytic, the practical, the charitable, the social ... Each of us enjoys freemasonry in their own way. There is no need to define what it is or is not. S&F, Cora
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Post by billmcelligott on Sept 19, 2008 12:27:29 GMT
Lets have a look at Max then, from Wikipedia:-
If the readers want to believe Max then fine, they will have to make up their own minds.
Yes I think it does, but I am ready to undergo examination, so I expect others to be as ready that is all. There is always more than one opinion, more than one conclusion. We arrive at those opinion by this kind discourse.
Elizabeth 1st: Much suspected by me, Nothing proved can be. (Reputedly carved onto a window at Woodstock Manor, Oxfordshire)
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Post by maat on Sept 22, 2008 1:49:42 GMT
Just an idle thought... and asked in total sincerity..
Bill, have you ever asked the GA or Jesus or Whomever, to show you in some unequivocal way that they exist? That there is more in this world than meets the eye?
Have you ever knocked?
Maat
(If you try it must come from your innermost sacred place, not just an unemotional idle question that you do not expect to be answered.)
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Post by billmcelligott on Sept 22, 2008 3:20:24 GMT
Maat
I see God in the smile of my Grandchildren, in the way my Wife looks at me when I do something she approves of [this happens about once every 10 years].
I see the Lord in the laughter of the young Lady that won a Gold medal for GB in the Para Olympics swimming.
I hear Jesus in the Laughter of children in school.
I feel the GA in the hand of an honest Brother.
I do not believe in making things complicated when they do not have to be.
Is this magical ? No its life. The good stuff and the bad stuff , it is the circle of life.
For example I have absolutely no fear of dieing, I trust the Lord to have done to me what he sees fit. I will take what comes, why ? because there is nothing I can do about it. Nothing I can do or say will make any difference. What will be will be. I will leave this world with no regrets.
You must not assume that because I do not believe in Magic, I do not believe there are things we do not understand. That in itself is illogical.
I had this same conversation yesterday on another forum. This was my reply:
What I am pointing to is, - there is no point on taking the train if you do not know where you want to go. What is more important, the journey or the destination ?
The journey may give you entertainment and some satisfaction, The destination will be the conclusion of a life's work.
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Post by corab on Sept 22, 2008 11:42:41 GMT
What I am pointing to is, - there is no point on taking the train if you do not know where you want to go. I don't agree with this actually. I am called to make this journey; where it leads only TGAOTU knows, and in Him/Her/It I place my faith; on His/Her/Its integrity I rely. I know not where I my journey leads, but that doesn't make it pointless -- far from it. The Journey. That we will get to our Destination is a given. How we get there, and how long it will take us, is up to us -- and all those twists and turns; all those u-turns trying to back away from the inevitable; all those times we know deep within which way we must go but fear it and deny it ... they are what matters more than anything. S&F, Cora
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Post by middlepillar on Sept 22, 2008 11:57:11 GMT
It is either Mystical or it is not, the perception that it is for some and not for others seems a bit too far for me, We could all join the a Tennis Club and some will find it mystical and most will not. The question would be, would the same individuals find the tennis club to be Magical. Now that would prove something. It it is Freemasonry as an entity that contains some mystical thread then I have to try and understand why only a few feel it to be so. For example if were carrying out clinical trials the odds would be very low in favour of Freemasonry being Magical or Mystical I would put forward. Bill We cant all join the tennis club! Like a Golf club there is an entry procedure, and not all are deemed suitable members. (That could be deemed a mystery as to why not everyone is suitable!) However lets presume we all joined the tennis club, why would anyone think it was mystical? Does tennis enable you to practice philosophical ritual? many might find it a great way to keep fit and I am sure many would enjoy the camaraderie of belonging to a club where they had a mutual interest. But totally unreasonable to expect a mystical experience. I would suggest however certain people could find it a magical experience, especially youngsters or anyone visiting a Tennis club for the first time. You may only know a few people who find Freemasonry to have a mystical path/entity which is quite the norm I am sure, however I would just say I personally know quite a substantial few, this is only because I have joined certain Orders in Freemasonry that expand on the Mystical, it does not make me any better than you or any of the people I know, it is just a fact, I would also suggest that different provinces within UGLE are made up of different types of Freemasons in as much as in Surrey The Royal & Select Masters and The Allied are extremely strong yet in a Province next door they are nowhere near as strong. This can also be the same with the Mystical, maybe in your part of the World there are not as many who believe Freemasonry to be Mystical or are even interested in the possibillity? At the end of the day it is irrelevant, it is impossible to prove it, therefore we all need to be happy with what we believe and let everyone believe what they are happy to do so. I do not need to prove to anyone what I know and experience, if anyone is interested I would happily talk to them but it does not effect me one way or another. I have never come across a clinical trial yet that prove the existence of God. Why is it so important to find one that proves the existence of a mystical path in Freemasonry? Freemasonry was never meant to be open to everyone, it was and still is in some cases a system of filtration. I am sure there are many who do not agree with me, however at the end of the day it doesnt matter, we all believe what we want to. That is the beauty of Freemasonry
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Post by billmcelligott on Sept 22, 2008 16:26:09 GMT
Cora Ok, lets have a look at this from a different angle then.
Why speak of Mystical happening on a journey when you do not know why your on it ?
Let us say that you have completed the mystical path [ not you in particular the collective YOU ] and at the end of this life long journey you are as insulting and self important as you were at the beginning of this mystical journey. What was the point of the journey. In other words if you are not going through life in a constant struggle to improve who you are. WHY? If the journey is only to watch the flowers grow and have a great time. WHY?
Here I agree with 95%, I do not think that everyone has a 'given' on this journey. Some will not understand where until they have mostly completed the tasks in front of them.
It is the journey of life that is the testing ground and the training ground. but what use is a testing ground if it results in no improvement.
Let us examine one of the most used cliché in the English language, "It is better to give than receive" hundreds of thousands of people probably say that every day.
It is in all the major Religions. but there is a big difference between saying it and living it. Who is there that gets at Christmas another dam pair of socks when we have 39 pairs identical in the draw and says 'Lovely, just what I wanted' and actually means it.
If the journey is not to make you a better person then, what is the journey for?
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Post by billmcelligott on Sept 22, 2008 16:49:25 GMT
Chris , you assume because I question a stance I am automatically against it. This is not the case. By answering my demanding question you may well be more spiritually enlightened.
I understand that some have an attraction toward mystical happenings. I have experienced some very strange happenings, but because I do not have a ready packed explanation I do not place them in the Mystical pigeon hole that is all.
My point is.
Lets say You , Me and Cora join Surbiton Tennis Club.
Cora and You have already said that you believe in mystical aspects to Freemasonry, now as we arrive for our first day at Surbiton Tennis Club, you say " this seems like a very special place to me" and Cora says " Yes you are right it does". I say "looks like a Tennis Club to me".
I have taken my pre conceived opinions with me , agreed ?
But so have you and Cora. In other words it is not the club but those who are observing it. Now please try to understand I am not saying there is anything wrong with this, just that I do not believe it is Freemasonry that makes Masonry mystical but more the individuals that observe it.
You are quite correct in saying that what we say and believe does not make us better than anyone else, however it is difficult to have these conversation without sounding like that though. But like you, I do not want to be superior to anyone, I am certain I am not.
I will call you on this sentence though
In my young days I did a lot of Kung Fu / Karate, physically demanding, certainly improved my mental strength and made me much more calm than I used to be. All in all I would say an excellent training ground to improve oneself. It is possible that Andy Murray and Tim Henman would agree with me.
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Post by middlepillar on Sept 22, 2008 18:18:58 GMT
Chris , you assume because I question a stance I am automatically against it. This is not the case. By answering my demanding question you may well be more spiritually enlightened. I understand that some have an attraction toward mystical happenings. I have experienced some very strange happenings, but because I do not have a ready packed explanation I do not place them in the Mystical pigeon hole that is all. My point is. Lets say You , Me and Cora join Surbiton Tennis Club. Cora and You have already said that you believe in mystical aspects to Freemasonry, now as we arrive for our first day at Surbiton Tennis Club, you say " this seems like a very special place to me" and Cora says " Yes you are right it does". I say "looks like a Tennis Club to me". I have taken my pre conceived opinions with me , agreed ? But so have you and Cora. In other words it is not the club but those who are observing it. Now please try to understand I am not saying there is anything wrong with this, just that I do not believe it is Freemasonry that makes Masonry mystical but more the individuals that observe it. Bill I have known you and how you write for some time now, I do not assume anything, I appreciate you trying to encourage open discussion, I was trying to make my own observations on the subject, no assumptions. However I would like to take you to task on what you have written here, If I observe that a certain place seems special to me it is simply because it does, it would have nothing to do with pre conceived conception! Again I can only make comments on my own experiences, I have been to many meetings where the energies and atmosphere have been quite extroadinary, I have been to far more where I have never felt a thing. I do not go in to a Temple with pre conceived expectations, I go in with an open mind, and take whatever I get. I have often said that whatever anyone gets from Freemasonry is just great by me, and I believe that everyone should be left to make up their own minds on what it has to offer. I am always willing to answer any questions trhough!
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Post by lauderdale on Sept 22, 2008 19:40:02 GMT
On this from my personal experiences I side with Bros MP and Cora.
Some times one goes on a journey not too bothered as to the outcome, e.g jump in the car, or on the motor-bike etc and see where you end up. Fun when one can do so and often leading to unexpected results.
On most occasions however one has a destination in mind but can have various means and routes of getting there.
Now Surbiton has been used as an example, and from where I live in Reading I have several routes to get there, in my case by train. Some are quicker than others, some slower but more picturesque and enjoyable, but they all lead to the same ultimate destination - Surbiton.
Again some people will like that suburb of London, some will dislike it, others again will be neutral. It is the same Surbiton but with their several perceptions of it.
There can even be the case of people going there, perhaps to the very same venue but deriving a different experience and outcome. I can well remember attending a Meeting in Surbiton on Saturday 10th June 2006. Bros Cora and MP were there too. I was to find there what I had been seeking for a long time and it made a great change to my life. I wonder what Bros Cora and MP found there on that occasion, but feel that although much of it would have been similar the outcome for each would have been quite different.
All in all we can participate in the same activity even at the same place and time but derive far different experiences therefrom. As an example Bing Crosby's last words are reputed to have been "That was a great game of golf" Winston Churchill denounced the same activity as "A good walk ruined" . Each derived their own experience of Golf, neither was right or wrong therein.
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Post by billmcelligott on Sept 22, 2008 23:11:35 GMT
OK Bro Steve
Let us distinguish between a walk in the park and the walk through life.
Your quite right when you say.
But let us examine this paragraph for a second and ask, why?
Because I am not getting to the point I would like to labour my premise, If I start off from Reading, and I am a selfish, conceited person and I take route [1] through, pastures meadows etc, then I take route [2] on another day and I get there quicker, then another day I take part of route [1] and finish on route [2], but I arrive at Surbiton a selfish, conceited person, I have achieved nothing. I may well have experienced a spiritual or mystical journey but I have not improved who or what I am.
My premise is that Freemasonry is for the improvement of the Individual and not for any other purpose.
Now if you can show or explain how any mystical or magical experience does the same then fine.
But mostly what I see written and explained is how these magical or mystical experiences affect personal feelings. Chris has just said as much, it is how he feels. I can not remember seeing anyone write or explain how these experiences have improved them as people. Obviously I can be wrong, but it has not been presented to me as such.
In the US most Grand Lodges use the phrase "Making Good men Better"
UGLE says "Freemasonry teaches moral lessons and self-knowledge through participation in a progression of allegorical two-part plays, which are learnt by heart and performed within each lodge.
Freemasonry offers its members an approach to life which seeks to reinforce thoughtfulness for others, kindness in the community, honesty in business, courtesy in society and fairness in all things. Members are urged to regard the interests of the family as paramount but importantly Freemasonry also teaches and practices concern for people, care for the less fortunate and help for those in need. "
LDH says "Freemasonry expects from its members, obedience to civil laws as defined by the country in which they reside. Masonic principles do not conflict with a citizen's duties, they reinforce them. These principles are the strength which underlies the personal fulfilment of a member's public and private responsibilities. A member's duty as a citizen is paramount and takes precedence over any other obligation. Freemasons must never exploit their membership for personal gain or on behalf of any outside interest, as this is contrary to the teachings of Freemasonry."
None say it is for the furtherment of mystical knowledge.
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Post by maat on Sept 22, 2008 23:43:15 GMT
So far as journey's go.. There is the first one we take, BLIND, through the Two Pillars.. (we must trust..) There are the three journeys WE ARE TAKEN ON once inside.. (we must trust..) Then in R.Arch we have a most important sojourner WHO IS APPOINTED TO TAKE US by ways we know not.. (we must trust..) In Mark WE ARE ESCORTED to the Overseers.. and when it all gets too hard for us we ARE ASSISTED from 'above' by 'persons' stationed there for that purpose... (we must trust..) etc etc then there is that familiar phrase... Masonic JOURNEY. Was there anything gained in life, food, shelter, companionship, but just standing still? Do we know where we are going when we look for a job or a spouse? Life teaches us to step out into the unknown if we want to achieve great things. We don't know where we are going when we are 16, but at that age we eagerly anticipate the journey out into the big wide world.. remember ? Maat
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Post by lauderdale on Sept 23, 2008 4:41:31 GMT
Bro Bill, I cannot and would not even try to step into your shoes on a journey only oneself can make and which we all see differently. Leave aside that one CAN be changed on a journey, Saul on the round to Damascus comes to mind as does St Francis returning from a battle in his finery as a young Italian nobleman but to become a poor friar and the founder of a great monastic order.
In the end, and I have tried various analogies, one is either attuned to certain Mystical aspects or one is not. The Mystic is not superior for that reason to the more mundane person, only different
Returning to the person travelling to Surbiton, but it could be to somewhere in Essex for all it matters as an example. Some will for various reasons gain little from the journey itself, they may be busy reading, have other matters on their mind. The train may be crowded, hot and noisy. Others will gain enjoyment and possibly even knowledge from the journey, whether from the scenery or perhaps from meeting someone on the train .
The destination may well hold different things too for each traveller once they arrive. To some it may just be a day out and change of scene, to others something far deeper may occur.
Perhaps another analogy is a trip to an Art Gallery. For some the paintings will do little, to others they will be deeply inspiring. Even within the paintings some artists will not inspire some viewers, as an example the works of Turner do nothing for me, I see them as "Daubs" but Gainsborough, Landseer, Stubbs or Raeburn do please and inspire me.
Once an UGLE Grand Officer addressing a Lodge I then attended said, "One both gets out of Freemasonry and puts into it different things"and I feel that applies as much to the Mystical and Esoteric aspects which some "get" and some do not, as it does to the other facets be they Social , Ritualistic or whatever and again there is neither a correct nor a wrong answer. In the end it is what it does for each member as a person.
As to "making Good men better". If Freemasonry does this for some people then that is great. it is not for me its Prime Purpose and I find the phrase a bit "Cracker Barrel" and do not use it. I have unfortunately know it in a few cases make "Bad men worse" by acting as a vehicle for their ego.
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imakegarb
Member
One wee, sleeket, cowran, tim'rous beastie
Posts: 3,573
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Post by imakegarb on Sept 23, 2008 6:29:36 GMT
I say "looks like a Tennis Club to me"" . Pssssst, Bro. Bill, I think it's a racket
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Post by middlepillar on Sept 23, 2008 9:14:13 GMT
Because I am not getting to the point I would like to labour my premise, If I start off from Reading, and I am a selfish, conceited person and I take route [1] through, pastures meadows etc, then I take route [2] on another day and I get there quicker, then another day I take part of route [1] and finish on route [2], but I arrive at Surbiton a selfish, conceited person, I have achieved nothing. I may well have experienced a spiritual or mystical journey but I have not improved who or what I am. My premise is that Freemasonry is for the improvement of the Individual and not for any other purpose. Now if you can show or explain how any mystical or magical experience does the same then fine. But mostly what I see written and explained is how these magical or mystical experiences affect personal feelings. Chris has just said as much, it is how he feels. I can not remember seeing anyone write or explain how these experiences have improved them as people. Obviously I can be wrong, but it has not been presented to me as such. Bill You make an excellent point, and you have certainly laboured hard to make it! I am sorry but I have always taken it as read that whilst on my particular journey (Being a member of masonic Forums is part of that journey as well!) readers of what I write would appreciate how much I have changed, just not neccessarily how. You are quite right that Freemasonry is designed to make its members better people, but the use of mundane words does not do justice to how it subtlely does so. During my near 20 years of being a member I know how it has changed me, I hope most of my friends have noticed but again it may be important to get comments from friends but it isnt a neccessesity. To your own self be true! Perhaps my latin motto I use in SRIA will tell people more about me than I can myself; Perseverando Conficere to which I shortened to Perseverando when I was admitted into HOM. They mean; Achievement through perseverance and then simply Perseverance! Of those that knew me before I became a Freemason, I have been told how much I have changed. I just hope that I continue to do so!
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Post by hollandr on Sept 23, 2008 9:43:38 GMT
>I can not remember seeing anyone write or explain how these experiences have improved them as people.
I have had various experiences that might be described as mystical and they have increased over time so that the lesser ones occur pretty much at will. These lesser experiences concern observation of and/or participation in the inner processes of the surrounding beings.
For example, recently a friend was having trouble with his work place over several months. He was depressed and talking about suicide. When I looked there were dark forces interfering so I persuaded them to withdraw. From that day my friend talked about having "ok" days at work and ceased to talk about suicide.
I do not think of that experience of seeing dark forces and resolving them as mystical because the faculties are under my control. But in earlier days when the faculties were not under my control and I was directed in my actions, I could easily have classified such experiences as mystical.
The greater experiences are thrust upon me and I observe during and after the event and seek to understand. Often those experiences are connected with building light bodies at various scales. And often results are seen on the outer levels.
So my interest in the mystical is not so much for self-improvement as in contributing to the greater whole
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Post by corab on Sept 23, 2008 11:45:45 GMT
Why speak of Mystical happening on a journey when you do not know why your on it ? One word I have for ye: FAITH. I know why I am on this journey -- because I am called to. I just don't know where it leads -- only TGAOTU does. He calls, I follow. He points, I go. Such assumptions ... You speak of constant struggle -- do you think it is easy to surrender so wholly to your call? "Father, into Thy hands I commend my Spirit." It sounds so easy -- and truly, once you've done it, it is (most of the time ), but to GET there, to actually DO it ... that's not easy, Bill. That is the ultimate "constant struggle". And once you've committed to that path, that mystical journey towards reunion with the godhead within; the Inner Ruler Immortal, it is inevitable, totally, absolutely inevitable, that you become a better person. FAITH. To go where you're called; to do as you are commanded WITHOUT knowing why, where, when ... that is the mystical journey. The journey is to serve your purpose. That can only be done by total surrender to That which guides us to the destiny It laid out for us so long ago. If we believe that It is Good, Beautiful and True, then surely we must become better beings ourselves all the while we approach It on our journey ..? S&F, Cora
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Post by corab on Sept 23, 2008 11:54:40 GMT
There are the three journeys WE ARE TAKEN ON once inside.. (we must trust..) No Mystical Journeys in Emulation, Ma'at ... how my ceremony would ever have made sense to me without them beats me, but that's an aside.
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