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Post by teddyballgame on Nov 3, 2008 10:06:03 GMT
When I see a bird that walks like a duck and swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, I call that bird a duck. What the Duck are you talking about? Your statement means what? So, Brother Brandt is a duck? or is the Rectified Scottish Rite a duck? or that Brandt answered Bro Bill's questions politely and honestly? shed some Light on this Brother who is apparently in the dark with Architekts humor? I do not understand what prompted such a response?
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Post by billmcelligott on Nov 4, 2008 8:44:11 GMT
A duck by any other name would smell as sweet.
OK, If it looks like GOdF and it walks like GOdF and it talks like GOdF then it is GOdF.
No problem with that whatsoever, but it is not a Swan.
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imakegarb
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One wee, sleeket, cowran, tim'rous beastie
Posts: 3,573
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Post by imakegarb on Nov 5, 2008 0:15:02 GMT
A duck by any other name would smell as sweet. Well, maybe if you add a little mint sauce Unless the duck is Bro. Brandt (I never knew that about you Bro. Brandt). 'Cause he's a Brother and so, I think, we ought not cook him (I hear he's a little tough anyway ). Maybe we could hit KFC for a bucket instead. Only I don't think they serve swan. But the Schwan delivery driver might deliver duck (I've never asked). What were we talking about?
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Post by lauderdale on Nov 5, 2008 5:31:10 GMT
My personal best wishes to GOUSA, Bro Brandt.
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Post by brandt on Nov 5, 2008 8:04:23 GMT
I have little nutritional value, all just empty calories.
The Grand Orient is surely not a "swan" nor is it the Grand Orient of France. It is the Grand Orient of the United States, and it is what it is.
Frat.·. Brandt
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Post by leonardo on Nov 5, 2008 8:15:43 GMT
Well said, Brandt. We are all what we are and are to be judged (if that's the right words) on that and not simply from another's perspective.
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Post by billmcelligott on Nov 5, 2008 9:39:53 GMT
I have a picture in my head of Danny Kaye singing the Ugly duckling.
I can not see the difference between the Orients, now it may be they just agree on certain principles, thats OK.
Someone just said I have had the questions answered, well thats not quite right. I can see from Brandts answers that there is little or no difference between the GOoUS and the GOdF, what I am still yet ti understand is 'why the patent' if there is no connection other than the similarity of principle, why the patent ?
Well I shall have a stab at the answer : Is it so there can be a claim to antiquity, a claim of lineage to the beginnings,
Now if there is no other connection other than a recognition issue, a treaty, surely this claim can not be made ?
So to someone of limited intelligence like me it looks like things switch around depending on the question.
If they are two separate GL's then how can one claim lineage from the other, if they are linked by history they would have been contact before 27th November 2007.
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Post by corab on Nov 5, 2008 13:29:27 GMT
Bro:. Brandt,
I have to admit that like Bro:. Bill I am somewhat puzzled as to the need for GOdF's French Rite authority to grant GOUSA a patent for it to work the French Rite, when next we see is an announcement of new lodges working a different Rite.
Without any enmity at all, may I ask you for your stance on the following hypotheses:-
1. the Patent, issued by a subsidiary authority of GOdF, was needed so that the Grand Council of GOdF could formally recognise GOUSA as a Sovereign Masonic Body and enter into a Treaty of Amity with it; 2. there never was a requirement nor, perhaps, intention, for GOUSA to work the French Rite; 3. henceforward, GOUSA's lodges are most likely to work Rites native to the USA.
As I said: no enmity; just conjecturing as the whole situation remains ... very interesting.
S&F,
Cora
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imakegarb
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Posts: 3,573
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Post by imakegarb on Nov 5, 2008 21:12:51 GMT
Bro. Bill, there are differences between the Grand Lodges. I mean, you and I have discussed differences between the UGLE and the GLoS and other such with no qualms at all. There are differences but it makes no difference.
Is it not likewise possible there could be differences between Grand Orients but those differences make no difference?
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Post by billmcelligott on Nov 5, 2008 22:00:43 GMT
I have no qualms, I just would like to know what purpose does the patent serve.
I honestly do not mind if they are the same or totally different. But if the only purpose the patent serves is to allow a claim of lineage back to 1717 then in my humble opinion, it is no reason for a celebration.
You and I Karen, could open a Grand Lodge tomorrow and have the same principles. We would not need a patent or amity with anyone. We could just do it.
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imakegarb
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Post by imakegarb on Nov 5, 2008 22:54:03 GMT
Hmmmmm. K, totally different topic here as I'm not qualified to answer the question but another one came to mind and . . . Bro. Arch, when the original Grand Lodges were established, they claimed their lineage from the Operative Lodges that came before but did not seek so much as a nod from those Operative Lodges. Would that not make those original Grand Lodges, then, brand new 'stand-alone', self-erected entities? A Yes/No will suffice Indeed
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Post by middlepillar on Nov 5, 2008 23:14:52 GMT
Hmmmmm. K, totally different topic here as I'm not qualified to answer the question but another one came to mind and . . . Bro. Arch, when the original Grand Lodges were established, they claimed their lineage from the Operative Lodges that came before but did not seek so much as a nod from those Operative Lodges. Would that not make those original Grand Lodges, then, brand new 'stand-alone', self-erected entities? A Yes/No will suffice Indeed Hmmmmmm Bro Karen There is a lot of supposition in your statement! How do you know what was claimed and if anyone was asked? It is so terribly documented! What happened really? We do not know for sure one way or another! Whereas The GOoUSA is happening today!
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Post by brandt on Nov 6, 2008 0:31:10 GMT
It really is too bad that I had little time to post today, I was quite busy. That being the case I do apologize for moving in so many directions in this post.
First, there are internal matters of the Grand Orient that I will not discuss at this time. I have promised before on this forum that if and when something of interest does occur will inform those that are interested. Judging from the members of this forum I suspect that there are some members that would be interested. Please forgive me if I am unable at this time to lay out the books so to speak for Brethren that are not members of the Grand Orient to view.
Second, there are two "pillars" of Free-Masonry. One is an administrative structure that is addressed by the Treaty of Amity that exists between the Grand Orient of France and the Grand Orient of the United States. This is administrative entity is "self-erected" and sovereign. The second pillar has to do with initiatic authority. The patent that has been discussed grants full initiatic authority to the Grand Orient of the United States for the symbolic grades of the Modern Rite and the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite. There is also a patent for the Orders of Wisdom of the Modern Rite.
As my dear Sister Cora has asked about the workings within the Grand Orient of the United States. Most of our lodges work the Scottish Rite while others work the Modern Rite. Only one lodge works the Rectified Scottish Rite. One lodge currently works Emulation.
Why the celebration, well - any excuse for a celebration. Though the Fraternity is always something to celebrate this was special as Brethren from three of our lodges were involved.
As to why the Rectified Scottish Rite, well, some Brethren are drawn to that specific initiatic endeavor. I will not cut and paste information from the Grand Priory of the Gauls. That fine organization clearly speaks for itself, though I would give proper credit if I were to post anything from the worthy Brethren there.
My dear and Respected Brother Middle Pillar mentioned that the Grand Orient of the United States is happening today. That is true my Brother. Echo. There are some matters that I would like to speak to you about in strict confidence in the near future as it is something that you will take a personal interest in. Romeo would not speak thus. Unfortunately do to the public nature of the internet I cannot discuss it with you now. Suffice it to say that there is more that meets the eye.
I hope that this addresses, in the best manner that I can at this moment, the concerns and questions (the pointed questions as well) of my Brethren here.
Frat.·. Brandt
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Post by brandt on Nov 6, 2008 4:26:19 GMT
Okay.
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Post by billmcelligott on Nov 6, 2008 6:38:29 GMT
Brandt
You said:
But this is the entire point is it not, no one asked for any permission to intiate a Brother when the GL of US was created and it just seems odd that on the 27th November it became necessary to gain permission to initiate from from a GL 6,000 miles away.
While I am not challenging the right to do so.
Logic tells me that as with the existing rituals you listed, there is no authority to use them, so why bother to ask for authority from the GOdF.
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Post by corab on Nov 6, 2008 8:14:03 GMT
Bro:. Brandt,
I thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule to answer to the best of your current ability to answer questions -- even the pointed ones -- and understand and respect that some matters must remain internal.
S&F,
Cora
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Post by middlepillar on Nov 6, 2008 9:08:52 GMT
Bro Brandt,
I am always interested in what is going on for you masonically, I know where your heart lies and that is good enough for me.
On the subject of self chartering, there are many historical precedents in this happening. Even recently the Order of The Rosy Cross Self Chartered, the main thing is simple. If you have enough people to do it, then do it! The thing I see that is causing misunderstanding is simply like Bill says.
You went and self chartered, you initiated brethren into your Lodges and then you seem to ned the back up of a Charter issued from somewhere else.
Your GL does not need this. As I have said if there are enough of you then it is quite within your power to say "**** the rest of you, this is who and what we are and we aint going anywhere!"
You will live or fall by the quality of the Initiatic experiences you give to your new members. I have never had an issue with this.
Once again Brandt, I wish you well my brother.
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Post by brandt on Nov 6, 2008 11:56:17 GMT
Perhaps this is a better discussion. Sure the Grand Orient of the United States can easily stand on its own. It has and it has grown. Though it has grown faster than I would have liked I am pleased with the quality of the outcome.
Middle Pillar was right when he said that there were simply enough boots on the ground for the Grand Orient to just begin working. Again I revert to the short discussion on administration and initiation.
Brandt
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Post by brandt on Nov 6, 2008 15:07:48 GMT
Perhaps neither one of us is being clear. When I said "okay" I was simply ending the discussion with you, I was not agreeing with you. Since you seem to have taken a personal issue with the Grand Orient of the United States I recommend that you contact your Grand Secretary and request that he contacts the Grand Secretary of the United States with your concerns which would be the proper way of handling something that you want changed in a jurisdiction that you are not a member of.
Brandt
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Post by brandt on Nov 6, 2008 15:10:04 GMT
To help you out in this endeavor you can pass this email address along to your Grand Secretary grandsecretary@grandorientusa.org
Brandt
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