afterthought
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A true initiation never ends. -Robert Anton Wilson
Posts: 242
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Post by afterthought on Mar 18, 2009 0:58:17 GMT
"The clandestine and expelled Masons forming such groups have a history of dissent. They form alliances and fall out with frequency. On a practical level the GOUSA and such groups are not a threat to regular Masonry because they cannot get along with each other. Having broken with regular Masonry they are by practice rebellious and prone to active dissension, even from one another." www.freemasons-freemasonry.com/freemasonry_digital_challenge.htmlWe as human beings have a right to associate with who we choose. It is in that sporot that I say articles like this one are of little to no greater value. One may not agree with those who "break off" from the common stone to go their own way but there is no need to go to the level of debate or hostility. To thine own self be true.
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imakegarb
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One wee, sleeket, cowran, tim'rous beastie
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Post by imakegarb on Mar 18, 2009 2:03:06 GMT
Last I heard, Bro. Brandt was off to get into some sort of weekend-long deviltry with, it was to be hoped, details posted later. My guess is he's still at it But, truly, he's got to come up for air some time
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Post by brandt on Mar 18, 2009 3:19:13 GMT
I am around, I just haven't been here in a while. It is good to know that I was so sorely missed.
As to the speculations regarding the vitality of the Grand Orient of the United States, we are doing fine. More than fine actually. Matters are moving along quite well.
Architekt, there are more than likely several reasons why I have not reported to you all of the details, news, and inner workings of the Grand Orient. We can leave it at that. The "lead players" of the Grand Orient of the United States have not had any clash of ego that is not standard for any organization. You might be making way too much stew out of those clams.
Brother Aaron is a good sort, he decided to go his own way. So be it.
Frat.·. Brandt
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afterthought
Member
A true initiation never ends. -Robert Anton Wilson
Posts: 242
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Post by afterthought on Mar 18, 2009 3:46:27 GMT
Brandt, thank you for your comment regarding this situation. I can understand why you would want to keep things internal.
Also, these types of speculations by outsiders are nothing new. Three Grand Masters and a Schism for a brand new order will give those of us on the outside plenty to speculate about.
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Post by brandt on Mar 18, 2009 4:09:12 GMT
Afterthought, I appreciate your understanding on these matters. Speculation from people outside of an organization has gone for as long as there have been people and it will continue to go on as long as there are people. I would think that there would be more to speculate about if something of this nature happened 50 or 100 years into the life of an organization. Beginnings are delicate times indeed.
Architekt, no sir, there has not been any news added to the website. I don't consider this odd at all. My friend and Brother John Slifko is working on some very exciting projects that I am sure many will hear about in the not too distant future if they run in those circles.
The Grand Orient of the United States is strong and vital within our own sphere of work. There are many things that we are working at the moment. That is where a good deal of my time goes (along with the regular day to day duties of life). I am quite pleased with the work that is being accomplished in the Grand Orient as a whole and within our Lodges. I often get news from the Lodges of the interesting amount of growth that they have experienced, my Lodge included.
Frat.·. Brandt
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Post by brandt on Mar 18, 2009 4:36:54 GMT
As you well know I stay away from outing other Masons in their personal works and policies. Brother Aaron has clearly made his choices public. Brother Slifko has not for his own reasons I am sure. Let's respect the Brother's privacy.
This is not a dodge nor an oblique remark. It is standard operating procedure for men like me when speaking to anonymous personalities. (I am sure that "architekt" is not the name that was given to you by your parents). I won't ask your identity as it is none of my business but it does color our discussions. If Brother John wishes to speak publically about his membership I can then speak on the subject. I could simply call him and get his permission to do so but I won't for the above mentioned reasons.
Frat.·. Brandt
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afterthought
Member
A true initiation never ends. -Robert Anton Wilson
Posts: 242
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Post by afterthought on Mar 18, 2009 6:07:33 GMT
Brandt, I will agree that people will talk as long as there are people to talk. I would like to present this in another way.
Let's compare this situation to the profane world of business. If a much hyped company, a fresh newcomer in an established industry makes a splash the street will take notice.
Then when that company goes through three CEO's in 14 months, one ex-CEO leads a coup of ex employees to set up a rival company and another ex-CEO not only leaves the industry but badmouths the company; it is only natural that speculation as to the companies health will ensue.
Not to mention the talk of company strategic alliances being servered (the rumored breakoff of amity with the GWU) it is no surprise that the buzz would be negative.
I hope for the sake of those who have taken the risj will reap the rewards. I can understand not "buying" what the GOUSA is selling but I do not condone baiting or childish attacks.
Good luck to you all.
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Post by brandt on Mar 18, 2009 12:17:00 GMT
I understand entirely why people will speculate. Nothing can stop it so I won't worry too much about it. Regarding the GWU, I can assure you that is entirely a rumor. Our relationship is strong as ever.
The negative buzz does not surprise me, the buzz has always been negative and I don't expect much else. As you say though, we that have taken the leap have also reaped the rewards. I am sure that will continue.
Brandt
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Post by maximus on Mar 18, 2009 13:19:13 GMT
I believe the Clintons called it "The Politics of Personal Destruction." Someone is poking badgers with spoons.
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Post by brandt on Mar 18, 2009 17:39:16 GMT
Businesses call this damage limitation. In politics it is called spin. You have the information that I am going to give. Of course it matters not, clearly your opinions were already formed and you seem to be trying to pick a fight. Why? Brandt
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Post by billmcelligott on Mar 18, 2009 18:03:44 GMT
Now Brandt that not completely fair.
GOUSA has to do what all other public groups do, you have to face the press during good times as well as bad. I wont, but I can go back and pull up all the announcements and proclamations made here and elsewhere during the time GOUSA was being created and established.
My observations are that most of us are very reasonable with Jeff and the groups he has been involved in, some have paid dearly for being so, a small matter which seems to have been completely overlooked. There will always be those who will have nothing to do with either but they are not here are they.
So I do not see that anyone wants to pick a fight, but like I just said you are in the spotlight and it would be good policy, in my humble opinion to just take it on the chin, answer the questions as best you can.
The truth is, if people did not like GOUSA before there is nothing in this news that will make them like it now.
But this is not a Lodge or a Temple, here we just discuss Freemasonry in general. As you should agree, You and Jeff are part of Freemasonry, so discuss.
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Post by brandt on Mar 18, 2009 19:04:39 GMT
Architekt, mea culpa - perhaps it is simply the medium through which we are communicating. I do feel the need to say that I did not fail to inform this forum. That would presume that I have certain duty to do so. This is more of social setting rather than an official Masonic setting. It is not selective information at all, it is not giving any information. With all due respect you are not "stating the obvious." You are stating your opinion based upon no information.
Bill, it seems that the problem here is that we are not in the spotlight. I have no problem with discussing Free-Masonry at all.
Brandt
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Post by brandt on Mar 18, 2009 20:11:14 GMT
Check back as often as you like sir. Our Lodges are informed of matters in the Grand Orient. I am sure that you understand that is where our primary responsibility is. Thank you for the well wishes.
Brandt
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Post by billmcelligott on Mar 18, 2009 20:34:24 GMT
OK , lets look at a hypothetical question.
The Grand Master of UGLE resigns. I am the Grand Secretary.
Are you saying to me that Brandt would not be interested in why ? Would you not ask me why ? come on , you know you would.
GOUSA, UGLE, Grand Orient , the local Moose Lodge, it makes no difference, its News.
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afterthought
Member
A true initiation never ends. -Robert Anton Wilson
Posts: 242
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Post by afterthought on Mar 18, 2009 20:46:55 GMT
Perhaps they do not wish to be "accepted" by the "Masonic World" (whatever that means, I have no idea.)
It is obvious that the GOUSA only wants to inform their own membership. They have built up a wall around themselves and that is their perogative to do so.
We all don't have to share our toys. Of course it would be nice if we did but as they say worry about what you, yourself can control.
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Post by brandt on Mar 18, 2009 21:43:38 GMT
I am sure that some would not care at all. I am also sure that some would be interested. The reasons for the interest in the subject are open to speculation. It is apparent that parts of the "Masonic world" wants nothing to do with other than to heap scorn or cast derision however well veiled it may be. Then there are other parts of the "Masonic world" that we do quite well with, they are informed about Grand Orient matters as well when it is pertinent.
Of course I would be interested if the GM of the UGLE were to resign. I may even ask. I would not clap and be pleased nor give projections of doom over a matter that I don't have the facts.
There is a bit of a wall around the Grand Orient, we attend to our own business. There is also a wall around every other Masonic body in the world. There are many doors though.
Brandt
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Post by brandt on Mar 19, 2009 3:12:42 GMT
What story would that be sir?
Brandt
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Post by brandt on Mar 19, 2009 15:31:03 GMT
Politics is a nasty animal. We have to determine our goals and move forward. Though you and I are of different Masonic organizations we still share similar goals. How can we do this together?
Brandt
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Post by brandt on Mar 19, 2009 16:44:51 GMT
Brother (and I use that honorific with all the strong emotional attachments that there can be to that), you and I have always managed to engage in pointed though respectful discussion regardless of our divergent ideas. That is one of the many reasons why I respect you. "Recognition" is a matter of the those that love to engage in poitics. We can, by virtue of the nature of this forum, engage as simple Master Masons trying to grow and learn. I will admit that there were times that you have had my feathers in a ruffle. That is okay, I don't mind discomfort in a discussion. Usually those are the best ones.
I could really care less about what jurisdiction a Mason "belongs" to. I care only about the quality of a Masons character. You sir have strong convictions and character. I respect that to a great degree (no pun intended). I welcome the concept of meeting you on the level regardless of the politics. We can, by our obvious differences, grow together and challenge each other.
There is Brandt Smith as a Mason that expresses joy at the idea of engaging my Brothers and Sisters in challenging discussions. Then I am the Grand Secretary of the Grand Orient of the United States. The most important of the two is that I am nothing more than a Master Mason amongst Brothers and Sisters. That is the real key. We do have the same goals. The betterment of ourselves as individuals and what we can do, as individuals, in the world around us. That is ultimately all I am concerned with.
I do express my personal opinions openly. We have a great deal of work to do. Let us do it together in the manners and methods that we can.
Fraternally and most sincerely, Brandt
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Post by brandt on Mar 19, 2009 16:47:58 GMT
I do so love it when they take out the Masonic Feathers and start tickling in the ways that only knowledgably Raised Masons can. ;D Brother Prometheus, you and I go back a bit. You know where I stand on Masonic philosophy. We have always been friendly to each other. I have no reason to suspect that will change now. You are a good man and a good Mason. As you say Master Masons can "tickle" in ways that none other can. This is an opportunity to open doors of communication that have thusfar been closed. frat.·. Brandt
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