afterthought
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A true initiation never ends. -Robert Anton Wilson
Posts: 242
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Post by afterthought on Mar 21, 2009 21:51:19 GMT
I am proud to be friends with many from this order. Smart Masons who know their stuff.
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Post by billmcelligott on Mar 21, 2009 22:10:45 GMT
The Grand Lodge of Ancient, Accepted and Esoteric Freemasons.
Then could you enlighten me as to how this became a Grand Lodge ?
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Post by middlepillar on Mar 21, 2009 22:30:14 GMT
I am proud to be friends with many from this order. Smart Masons who know their stuff. Is that a fact or your opinion?
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afterthought
Member
A true initiation never ends. -Robert Anton Wilson
Posts: 242
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Post by afterthought on Mar 21, 2009 22:48:17 GMT
I am proud to be friends with many from this order. Smart Masons who know their stuff. Is that a fact or your opinion? This is my opinion after dealing with many members from all over the world. I understand that many other may not "validate" AA & EF Masons but I would argue that that is hardley their problem. The ones who I had the shared the last meeting with in Las Vegas showed remarkable mastery of Enochian theory and practice. My front door will always be open to them. Let's hope they like my brisket and asparagus.
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vtmason
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Running Dog Lackey
Posts: 251
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Post by vtmason on Mar 22, 2009 13:41:23 GMT
HISTORY OF A.·. A.·. & E.·. F.·. - The Ancient, Accepted & Esoteric Freemasons was initially chartered by the Grand Orient on May 14, 1928. On November 17, 1976 Grandmaster Juliet Ashley established the Sovereign and Independent Grand Lodge of Ancient, Accepted and Esoteric Freemasons. This action was ratified at the annual meeting in Washington, D.C. on June 22, 1977 and the name of the Grand Lodge was officially changed to International Sovereign and Independent Grand Lodge of Ancient, Accepted and Esoteric Freemasons. At that meeting the Grand Lodge also established Acacia Lodge #1 A:. A:. & E:. F:. as the first Lodge of Master Masons under the new jurisdiction. esotericfreemason.com/candidate/history2.htmlMy question is what Grand Orient?A Grand Orient is basically a Grand Lodge. They will usually have two or more accepted rituals, and operate a little looser. The Grand Orient of Italy comes readily to mind. I'm not 100% on all the specifics, but I'm certainly not into mail order Masonry.
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Post by billmcelligott on Mar 22, 2009 15:02:09 GMT
As many here will know I am not a fan of those who bandy about the word 'Esoteric' as if it were a badge to signify superiority of some kind. Any form of superiority in my opinion shows the proponent to be less than honest.
Like most things in life however it is the manner of which an individual operates rather than what he or she calls themselves. I do not like the 'everyone is an idiot, therefore it is my role in life to enlighten them' syndrome.
Then I see the word Grand Lodge added it then makes me very concerned that this superiority complex allows these individuals to bestow upon themselves another form of superiority.
I am happy with the term 'esoteric' with a small 'e' it is a descriptive word not a noun. Just the sound concerns me - 'I am an Esoteric', - 'That person is esoteric'. An Esoteric label creates a badge of honor which may be earned, but who can judge that, certainly not me.
Generally speaking I have observed that the 'Esoteric' use '470' words when '1' or '2' would do the job just as well.
So it is not so much the amount of information that you have on a subject, but the use to which you put that learning. a clever 'dip-stick' is still a 'dip-stick'.
OK so if I create the 'Grand Lodge of Very Clever Internet Masons' in the year 2009, I am sure many will rush to join, fees will be $2,000 a year. Now that is a small price to pay to become one of the Internet Elite.
Or maybe it is just my inferiority complex, Naaaaagh that cant be it!
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afterthought
Member
A true initiation never ends. -Robert Anton Wilson
Posts: 242
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Post by afterthought on Mar 22, 2009 16:41:45 GMT
How do they IPR candidates? You can join their Yahoo group and find out. It is full of information regarding the AA&EF.
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vtmason
Member
Running Dog Lackey
Posts: 251
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Post by vtmason on Mar 22, 2009 18:25:50 GMT
A Grand Orient is basically a Grand Lodge. They will usually have two or more accepted rituals, and operate a little looser. The Grand Orient of Italy comes readily to mind. I'm not 100% on all the specifics, but I'm certainly not into mail order Masonry. I know what a GO is ;D My point is the fact that the name of the jurisdiction of the GO is not mentioned is very suspicious to me. This basic lack of information casts a doubt as to the authenticity of this particular group. I'm still hoping somone can answer the 2 questions that were asked. But I'm not holding my breath! Too funny. The question is not "what is a Grand Orient", but "What Grand Orient is it?" My bad
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afterthought
Member
A true initiation never ends. -Robert Anton Wilson
Posts: 242
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Post by afterthought on Mar 22, 2009 19:27:29 GMT
As many here will know I am not a fan of those who bandy about the word 'Esoteric' as if it were a badge to signify superiority of some kind. Any form of superiority in my opinion shows the proponent to be less than honest. Like most things in life however it is the manner of which an individual operates rather than what he or she calls themselves. I do not like the 'everyone is an idiot, therefore it is my role in life to enlighten them' syndrome. Then I see the word Grand Lodge added it then makes me very concerned that this superiority complex allows these individuals to bestow upon themselves another form of superiority. I am happy with the term 'esoteric' with a small 'e' it is a descriptive word not a noun. Just the sound concerns me - 'I am an Esoteric', - 'That person is esoteric'. An Esoteric label creates a badge of honor which may be earned, but who can judge that, certainly not me. Generally speaking I have observed that the 'Esoteric' use '470' words when '1' or '2' would do the job just as well. So it is not so much the amount of information that you have on a subject, but the use to which you put that learning. a clever 'dip-stick' is still a 'dip-stick'. OK so if I create the 'Grand Lodge of Very Clever Internet Masons' in the year 2009, I am sure many will rush to join, fees will be $2,000 a year. Now that is a small price to pay to become one of the Internet Elite. Or maybe it is just my inferiority complex, Naaaaagh that cant be it! I think you may be taking things the wrong way. Many Masons are exotericly focused. In fact I would say that most of the Masons in the USA are. This does not mean that they are in anyway uneducated or less than anyone else. It just means that they may value the historical, philosophical or fraternal aspects of the Craft and this is where their interest is found. For someone who is esotericly rooted membership in an orgazation that is exotericly focused may not be for them. That doesn't make anyone right or wrong just diff'rent strokes for different folks is all.
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Post by billmcelligott on Mar 22, 2009 20:49:08 GMT
Well you could be right of course, but when confronted with a group that is labelled.
The Grand Lodge of Ancient, Accepted and Esoteric Freemasons
you cant blame me for wondering
1> How did they become a Grand Lodge
and
2> What is that they are doing that can not be done from within Freemasonry.
and
3> What is about the word Esoteric that makes it worth building a Grand Lodge around it.
But if I cant get an answer , I can't.
Or this could be an esoterically rhetorical question.
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afterthought
Member
A true initiation never ends. -Robert Anton Wilson
Posts: 242
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Post by afterthought on Mar 22, 2009 23:26:35 GMT
You can join their Yahoo group and find out. It is full of information regarding the AA&EF. I don'think I need to bother with that. I assume you do not know either and therefore cannot answer the questions. The fact that their own official website is not more specific leads me to believe this is a 'made up' society that sells degrees and charges for it via mail-order. You seem to be a resourceful fellow. I figured if you are really interested in an answer to your question you could find it. I suspect that you don't so much care about the answer as you already have your mind made up on the matter. You probably had your mind made up about the AA&EF even before you checked out their website. You may not find value in what they do, so what? Many do and good for them. I see no harm in anyone seeking to imporve themselves through Freemasonry, in fact I am all for it. I am not a member of the AA&EF so I did not feel it appropriate to speak for them as to how they IPR candidates. The information is avalible and it is avalible from them. When we get right down to fact every single Masonic group was "made up" if you want to go back far enough. Who cares?
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vtmason
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Posts: 251
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Post by vtmason on Mar 22, 2009 23:42:00 GMT
Too funny. The question is not "what is a Grand Orient", but "What Grand Orient is it?" My bad My question was 'What Grand Orient?' there was no 'is a' in the sentence. easy there killer
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afterthought
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A true initiation never ends. -Robert Anton Wilson
Posts: 242
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Post by afterthought on Mar 23, 2009 3:22:51 GMT
Well you could be right of course, but when confronted with a group that is labelled. The Grand Lodge of Ancient, Accepted and Esoteric Freemasons you cant blame me for wondering 1> How did they become a Grand Lodge and 2> What is that they are doing that can not be done from within Freemasonry. and 3> What is about the word Esoteric that makes it worth building a Grand Lodge around it. But if I cant get an answer , I can't. Or this could be an esoterically rhetorical question. The AA&EF was based on a lodge chartered by the GOdF. They became a Grand Lodge the way most others have. That is what they decided to do so they did it. They are part of Freemasonry so I guess I don't get question number two. I think that having the term Esoteric right up front let's people know that they are esotericly based. That would tell me if I weren't interested in that sort of thing that perhaps I should enquire somewhere else.
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Post by billmcelligott on Mar 23, 2009 9:08:35 GMT
The AA&EF was based on a lodge chartered by the GOdF. They became a Grand Lodge the way most others have. That is what they decided to do so they did it. They are part of Freemasonry so I guess I don't get question number two. I think that having the term Esoteric right up front let's people know that they are esotericly based. That would tell me if I weren't interested in that sort of thing that perhaps I should enquire somewhere else. You see an old Intergalactic War Horse like me picks up on minutia such as .....The AA&EF was based on a lodge chartered by the GOdF. - So they created themselves then ? I checked the question and answer page they have on the web site which shows the following,.......... Q - What makes it legitimate? A - Their Charter from the Grand Orient made the Sovereign Grand Lodge legitimate in the beginning. The Grand Lodge then became an independent Masonic organization under the umbrella of the Universal Gnostic Church which continues to support and recognize the Sovereign and Independent Grand Lodge of Ancient, Accepted and Esoteric Freemasons. Q - Do these other Masonic Organizations recognize Esoteric Freemasons? A - No. Most so-called regular Masonic Lodges do not recognize Esoteric Freemasonry Lodges as being legitimate and classify Esoteric Freemasonry Lodges as clandestine Q - How do the regular Lodges react to their members joining Esoteric Freemasonry Lodges? A - Most regular Masonic groups expel any of their members who also join an Esoteric Freemasonry Lodge. For this reason, most regular Masons keep their membership in an Esoteric Freemason Lodge a secret . Others do not take any of the optional obligations of an Esoteric Freemason thus avoiding the dual membership problem. A few regular Masons do join openly because their Lodge doesn't mind. Obviously those interested can go read the full Q&A list. So the best I can work out is there is no obligation, no reason to follow any set rules and you may join and leave whenever you wish. No vetting of Candidates. On any founding basis of Freemasonry that I have been made aware of this is not , nor does it follow the basic principles of Freemasonry. This is fun isn't it.
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vtmason
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Running Dog Lackey
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Post by vtmason on Mar 23, 2009 10:17:50 GMT
But Bill... I thought it was all virtual. They have lodges?
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FireMist
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Then rally boys, and hasten on.To meet our Chiefs at the Green Dragon.
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Post by FireMist on Mar 28, 2009 21:10:57 GMT
Behind it seems to be not a grand lodge, but the Universal Gnostic Church Whatever that is.
Looking at the other links.... You too can become a spiritual health coach ??
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afterthought
Member
A true initiation never ends. -Robert Anton Wilson
Posts: 242
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Post by afterthought on Mar 29, 2009 16:06:21 GMT
But Bill... I thought it was all virtual. They have lodges? I am aware of three. Belgium, Chicago and North Carolina.
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afterthought
Member
A true initiation never ends. -Robert Anton Wilson
Posts: 242
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Post by afterthought on Mar 29, 2009 22:42:51 GMT
If what they do isn't for you, don't join. Really simple.
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FireMist
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Then rally boys, and hasten on.To meet our Chiefs at the Green Dragon.
Posts: 293
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Post by FireMist on Mar 29, 2009 22:57:52 GMT
Ahh. but you have to pay the fee to get the materials...win win situation for them.
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afterthought
Member
A true initiation never ends. -Robert Anton Wilson
Posts: 242
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Post by afterthought on Mar 29, 2009 23:02:29 GMT
Ahh. but you have to pay the fee to get the materials...win win situation for them. You can join their yahoo group for free and ask all the questions you like for free. Not all Orders are for everyone, that much is clear. There is no need to bash, just move on.
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