vtmason
Member
Running Dog Lackey
Posts: 251
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Post by vtmason on Mar 29, 2009 23:44:41 GMT
Ahh. but you have to pay the fee to get the materials...win win situation for them. You can join their yahoo group for free and ask all the questions you like for free. Not all Orders are for everyone, that much is clear. There is no need to bash, just move on. I don't mean to bash. I do get a little sensitive when something that CLEARLY is not Freemasonry, claims to be such. I've learned a lot about tolerance over the years, but have never seen a Grand lodge claim sovereignty that was formed by a church
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Post by letterorhalveit3 on Sept 23, 2009 9:46:13 GMT
I tend to offer a lot of latitude for what is regular Freemasonry and what is not in terms of my own personal acceptence of other obediences becuase there is nore than one way to skin a fraternal cat. But when that cat is a philisophical fraternity like Freemasonry, it seems that there must be at least some things which all bodies calling themselves Masonic follow. From what I have been able to investigate so far, the Esoteric body would not seem to be Freemasonry at all.
Ive often wondered why someone would need to rush off and found a new order of "freemasonry." Why dont you seek what you need within an established order. After all, as I have been told time and time again, you get out of Freemasonry what you put into it.
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Post by magusmasonica on Sept 23, 2009 16:26:34 GMT
I tend to offer a lot of latitude for what is regular Freemasonry and what is not in terms of my own personal acceptence of other obediences becuase there is nore than one way to skin a fraternal cat. But when that cat is a philisophical fraternity like Freemasonry, it seems that there must be at least some things which all bodies calling themselves Masonic follow. From what I have been able to investigate so far, the Esoteric body would not seem to be Freemasonry at all. Ive often wondered why someone would need to rush off and found a new order of "freemasonry." Why dont you seek what you need within an established order. After all, as I have been told time and time again, you get out of Freemasonry what you put into it. I know that I have met more than one member of the AA&EF who are top notch skilled Craftsmen. I don't know how they got that way and I really don't care. They do their work and the world is thus improved, the proof is in the pudding so to speak. Love and Light,
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Post by happyzealot on Sept 25, 2009 9:43:04 GMT
I don't know how they got that way and I really don't care. One the one hand I agree with you Brad, and on the other I have a hard time doing so. I agree with the idealism which believes the ideals of the Craft are bigger than a particular GL lineage. Otoh, the ideals are not unique to the Craft, but 'how we got there' is a core to the initiatic model. The commonality of our Brotherhood involves the 'rough and rugged road' we must perforce travel. It's real pithy and blase (and I don't mean this as a criticism) to say the path doesn't matter, but the path is how we of the Brotherhood have arrived at the place wherein we now stand; therefore to ignore the well-worn path is to throw the chisel out with the bathwater.
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Post by magusmasonica on Sept 25, 2009 16:49:15 GMT
I don't know how they got that way and I really don't care. One the one hand I agree with you Brad, and on the other I have a hard time doing so. I agree with the idealism which believes the ideals of the Craft are bigger than a particular GL lineage. Otoh, the ideals are not unique to the Craft, but 'how we got there' is a core to the initiatic model. The commonality of our Brotherhood involves the 'rough and rugged road' we must perforce travel. It's real pithy and blase (and I don't mean this as a criticism) to say the path doesn't matter, but the path is how we of the Brotherhood have arrived at the place wherein we now stand; therefore to ignore the well-worn path is to throw the chisel out with the bathwater. I understand your point but let me ask you this. How would it be possible for some of the AA&EF to be master Craftsmen without the their travel on the well worn path? Isn't it assumption just because of something is done differently means that that it isn't done at all? Love and Light, Edited for spelling mistake!! Worn instead of porn!!
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Post by letterorhalveit3 on Nov 9, 2009 4:37:51 GMT
I think one of the problems that many "mainstream" Freemasons, including myself, have with these totally online orders (and Im not singling out one in particular, Brad) is that they use the names, titles and trappings of Freemasonry and then wander off into the woods of stuff that has nothing and I do mean NOTHING to do with Freemasonry. For me the litmus test is when you start comparing Grand Lodges. Freemasonry, wherever it exists in the world, whether Grand Orient or Grand Lodge shares certain common traits, even if they differ in some others. Its not enough to simply call something Freemasonry and have it be so. There seems to be a trend being followed by a rather small number of "internet only Masons" that requires making up their own self-labelled initiatic rites, slapping the name Freemasonry onto the end of them and it is supposed to be seen as being true and it just isnt. I mean if I can simply go to a website and buy my degrees, then sorry, but that isnt Freemasonry. Thats just not how the Craft works.
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Post by magusmasonica on Nov 9, 2009 4:40:54 GMT
I think one of the problems that many "mainstream" Freemasons, including myself, have with these totally online orders (and Im not singling out one in particular, Brad) is that they use the names, titles and trappings of Freemasonry and then wander off into the woods of stuff that has nothing and I do mean NOTHING to do with Freemasonry. For me the litmus test is when you start comparing Grand Lodges. Freemasonry, wherever it exists in the world, whether Grand Orient or Grand Lodge shares certain common traits, even if they differ in some others. Its not enough to simply call something Freemasonry and have it be so. There seems to be a trend being followed by a rather small number of "internet only Masons" that requires making up their own self-labelled initiatic rites, slapping the name Freemasonry onto the end of them and it is supposed to be seen as being true and it just isnt. I mean if I can simply go to a website and buy my degrees, then sorry, but that isnt Freemasonry. Thats just not how the Craft works. How do you know what they do? Are you a member? You seem to have no problem accepting making thousands of Masons at a time in a football stadium. The GL of OH did just that. Is that Freemasonry? Your a partisan, I get that. With that in mind your posts are what they are. Love and Light,
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Post by letterorhalveit3 on Nov 9, 2009 5:05:28 GMT
I think one of the problems that many "mainstream" Freemasons, including myself, have with these totally online orders (and Im not singling out one in particular, Brad) is that they use the names, titles and trappings of Freemasonry and then wander off into the woods of stuff that has nothing and I do mean NOTHING to do with Freemasonry. For me the litmus test is when you start comparing Grand Lodges. Freemasonry, wherever it exists in the world, whether Grand Orient or Grand Lodge shares certain common traits, even if they differ in some others. Its not enough to simply call something Freemasonry and have it be so. There seems to be a trend being followed by a rather small number of "internet only Masons" that requires making up their own self-labelled initiatic rites, slapping the name Freemasonry onto the end of them and it is supposed to be seen as being true and it just isnt. I mean if I can simply go to a website and buy my degrees, then sorry, but that isnt Freemasonry. Thats just not how the Craft works. How do you know what they do? Are you a member? You seem to have no problem accepting making thousands of Masons at a time in a football stadium. The GL of OH did just that. Is that Freemasonry? Your a partisan, I get that. With that in mind your posts are what they are. Love and Light, Im sorry. When did the Grand Lodge of Ohio do that becuase I have friends in that Grand Lodge and never heard of such an event. Can you provide specific dates and places so that I can get information. Its especially odd that you would say the GL of OH did this since all "mainstream" Grand Lodges Ive ever heard of (ie the 50 that make up the AFAM or FAM GLs of the US) have prohibitions about how many Masons may be made at one time. I may seem partisan because I believe in teh Old Charges or belong to an AF&AM Lodge and GL that believes in do things as they have been done for a few centuries and not just making something up and calling it Freemasonry. How is that any worse than just creating Lodges out of thin air, telling people all they need is Skype capability to attend Lodge meetings and railing about how insufficient "mainstream" Masonry is. You say I represent a the far right, as it were, of Freemasonry. Well, you have gone so far as to be considered way WAY of the left end. When you have members of your Order telling people that the Lodge Napolean Bonaparte may not be for them becuase the workings include powerful chemicals which are very dangerous, I dont think that you should probably start calling names. Im partisan because I think alot of what is sold as internet Masonry (and i do mean sold) is off the charts worthless and not at all Freemasonry, then you are equally partisan because you never became a Master Mason in a "mainstream" Lodge and now rail against all of them as being evil incarnate. Kind of the pot calling the kettle black dont you think?
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Post by letterorhalveit3 on Nov 9, 2009 5:16:43 GMT
OK. Ill sort of take it on the chin for the Ohio thing because I just found what you seem to be talking about, although it is not exactly as you say. It took place in multiple locations and not just one as you claim. And, to clear the air, I think thats garbage too, but you should at least get your facts straight. Those Blue Lightening and ODCs are seen by almost every Mason I know to be garbage and I notice you have to go back to 2002-2003 to find something. These are not done anymore because GL's that would not do them and said they were unMasonic started announcing that they would pull their recognition of GL's who did that.
So I grant you the information that you gave about Ohio, though you still had to skew the facts and go back 8 years to attempt to prove a point. BUt then, who knows? Maybe the brand new Lodge Hera that comes right out and says that its made up its own rites will fair better.
By the way Im dont with this nonsense. It isnt as if its just that doesnt think this stuff that you literally sell is Freemasonry.
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Post by magusmasonica on Nov 9, 2009 5:34:14 GMT
How do you know what they do? Are you a member? You seem to have no problem accepting making thousands of Masons at a time in a football stadium. The GL of OH did just that. Is that Freemasonry? Your a partisan, I get that. With that in mind your posts are what they are. Love and Light, Im sorry. When did the Grand Lodge of Ohio do that becuase I have friends in that Grand Lodge and never heard of such an event. Can you provide specific dates and places so that I can get information. Its especially odd that you would say the GL of OH did this since all "mainstream" Grand Lodges Ive ever heard of (ie the 50 that make up the AFAM or FAM GLs of the US) have prohibitions about how many Masons may be made at one time. I may seem partisan because I believe in teh Old Charges or belong to an AF&AM Lodge and GL that believes in do things as they have been done for a few centuries and not just making something up and calling it Freemasonry. How is that any worse than just creating Lodges out of thin air, telling people all they need is Skype capability to attend Lodge meetings and railing about how insufficient "mainstream" Masonry is. You say I represent a the far right, as it were, of Freemasonry. Well, you have gone so far as to be considered way WAY of the left end. When you have members of your Order telling people that the Lodge Napolean Bonaparte may not be for them becuase the workings include powerful chemicals which are very dangerous, I dont think that you should probably start calling names. Im partisan because I think alot of what is sold as internet Masonry (and i do mean sold) is off the charts worthless and not at all Freemasonry, then you are equally partisan because you never became a Master Mason in a "mainstream" Lodge and now rail against all of them as being evil incarnate. Kind of the pot calling the kettle black dont you think? Forumit Teddyballgame can probably give the dates of the GL of OH's mass raisings. As to the rest you have jumped to huge conclusions. Sure, we use Skype because are membership is not in one set location. Big deal? Is that a hangable offense? Our ritual work is all done the "old fashioned way" using an original Rite in it's original 1788 form. When was the last time your ritual was revised? When I spoke of dangerous chemicals how come Maat got it and you totally took it the wrong way? I will let you ponder that one for a while. Yes, we believe that Freemasonry is a key to transmutative and transformative change, not just a fraternal benifit society. Trancendent tradition is a good thing. Tradition for traditions sake is just dead peoples baggage. Freemasonry of the 17th and 18th centuries was dynamic, evolving, breathing. To want to recapture that is such a terrible thing? I don't think mainstream Freemasonry is evil. I also don't think it is what is advertised. Basically, it is the Elks, sans women, better regalia and worse food. But is it Freemasonry? Sure, a form of it. That the thing. Freemasonry isn't a stand alone system of original material. It isn't a brand like Nike or Adidas. As much as partisans hate the fact they really don't own it. There are many different paths. Some more fraternal and 'mainstream" some more magickal and esoteric. So when the accusations begin and the claiming starts things just get nasty. It gets none of us anywhere. But at the end of the day what does it mean to have you not "recognize" me as a Mason? Nothing. It's unfortunate but it wont change the course of my direction. thats the end result of that. Love and Light,
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Post by magusmasonica on Nov 9, 2009 5:37:38 GMT
OK. Ill sort of take it on the chin for the Ohio thing because I just found what you seem to be talking about, although it is not exactly as you say. It took place in multiple locations and not just one as you claim. And, to clear the air, I think thats garbage too, but you should at least get your facts straight. Those Blue Lightening and ODCs are seen by almost every Mason I know to be garbage and I notice you have to go back to 2002-2003 to find something. These are not done anymore because GL's that would not do them and said they were unMasonic started announcing that they would pull their recognition of GL's who did that. So I grant you the information that you gave about Ohio, though you still had to skew the facts and go back 8 years to attempt to prove a point. BUt then, who knows? Maybe the brand new Lodge Hera that comes right out and says that its made up its own rites will fair better. By the way Im dont with this nonsense. It isnt as if its just that doesnt think this stuff that you literally sell is Freemasonry. Now this "selling" stuff is total and pure garbage. There is not one person, on this earth that you will find that has paid me one red cent for anything Masonic or related to it. I would appreciate you stop lying about that. Love and Light,
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Post by letterorhalveit3 on Nov 9, 2009 6:36:41 GMT
Whats interesting is that the person that made the comment about the dangerous chemicals wasnt you? Or at least at the time you said it wasnt. I believe it was your alter-ego Flame Noir.
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Post by magusmasonica on Nov 9, 2009 6:53:11 GMT
Whats interesting is that the person that made the comment about the dangerous chemicals wasnt you? Or at least at the time you said it wasnt. I believe it was your alter-ego Flame Noir. I say it all the time. every day in fact. Flame Noir isn't me, in fact she even offered to take phone calls to prove it. Of course no one took her up on it as gossip is so much more fun than the truth. Again, I ask for a apology for your accusing me of "selling" anything Masonic. That is just not the truth and I am pretty sure you know that. After that i suggest that we avoid each others posts from now on as I really want nothing more to do with you and I am interested in remaining a member of this board. Love and Light, BC
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Post by letterorhalveit3 on Nov 9, 2009 7:11:55 GMT
If me retracting the word "sell" will make you feel better, fine, so be it. Never mind the irony of the memorial for Billy Mays, the greatest pitch man ever on television. And youre right, if these spats are to continue, its better that it happens in private. No need to take up space and time of other users, even the ones that you attack. I apologize to them. As for you, Im sure youll get over it.
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Post by maximus on Nov 9, 2009 14:05:06 GMT
Flame Noir isn't me, in fact she even offered to take phone calls to prove it. Of course no one took her up on it as gossip is so much more fun than the truth. Well Brad, you must admit that wouldn't really prove anything, would it? You could easily get your wife to pose as Flame Noir on the phone and no one would be the wiser.
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Post by magusmasonica on Nov 9, 2009 18:20:39 GMT
Flame Noir isn't me, in fact she even offered to take phone calls to prove it. Of course no one took her up on it as gossip is so much more fun than the truth. Well Brad, you must admit that wouldn't really prove anything, would it? You could easily get your wife to pose as Flame Noir on the phone and no one would be the wiser. Suppose I could if I could get her to do that which I most likely would not be able to do. She would have a WA phone number, that would be a dead give away right? ;D Love and Light,
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Post by magusmasonica on Nov 25, 2009 5:44:53 GMT
"The Mason views life seriously, realizing that every wasted moment is a lost opportunity, and that Omnipotence is gained only through earnestness and endeavor. Above all other relationships he recognizes the universal brotherhood of every living thing. The symbol of the clasped hands, explained in the Lodge, reflects his attitude towards all the world, for he is the comrade of all created things. He realizes also that his spirit is a glowing, gleaming jewel which he must enshrine within a holy temple built by the labor of his hands, the meditation of his heart, and the aspiration of his soul. Freemasonry is a philosophy which is essentially creedless. It is the truer for it. Its brothers bow to truth regardless of the bearer; they serve light, instead of wrangling over the one who brings it." - Bro. Manly P. Hall
Sometimes it is best to just reflect on the wise words of those who travled the path before us.
Love and Light,
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Post by happyzealot on Nov 25, 2009 7:31:59 GMT
Hall's opinion is what it is. Good for him.
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Post by magusmasonica on Nov 25, 2009 7:41:00 GMT
Hall's opinion is what it is. Good for him. It's good for me too. ;D Every now and then it is good to be reminded of what really is important. Partisans be danmed Love and Light,
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Post by magusmasonica on Nov 25, 2009 17:29:30 GMT
Nice attempt at trolling ;D A happy Thanksgiving to you.
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