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Post by JulesTheBit on Aug 23, 2009 11:51:58 GMT
To be honest, I share some of Lauderdale's scepticism about social media, but take a look at this video on the subject. Some of the statistics are mind-boggling: Lies, damn lies, and statistics...... ;D And some of the stats there are simply untrue, eg the one about initial growth of internet use compared to other forms of communication. Initial take-up of the net in the 1980s was very slow. It only took off when ISPs and networks like AOL joined in, growth was very slow in the years before that. Still, the author meant well. JS
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Post by terrible on Aug 24, 2009 16:18:10 GMT
... Does anyone here at MFOL feel that by ignoring current trends now occurring on the internet that they will be "left behind" by the younger generation? For those of us not part of the "younger generation", are we being "left behind" currently because of our obsolete thinking? Do you think that Masonic leadership needs to take note of technology? Morning all I think that by posing that question, and the previous comments and quotes on this forum there's a certain amount of preaching to the converted. However, for my own part I think that to answer the last questiuon we have to consider the circumstances in which Freemasonry operates and the attitudes and preferences of its members and potential members. Bro. Jules, I know I'm preaching to the converted. The point is, how many of the unconverted, or unaware/whatever, do you sit with in Lodge, and does it have any impact?
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Post by lauderdale on Aug 24, 2009 21:00:52 GMT
Now I didn't realise that the drop-out rate was as bad as that! I do know that some quit Freemasonry after their Initiation as it simply wasn't what they thought it was going to be, and unlike other organisations you can't "Try before you buy". However I found that most who make it to their Third Degree tend to stay on at least till they have gone through the Chair. Some do drop out at that point I am aware.
Have you any idea why this is occurring? Is it cost?Is it time?
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Post by maat on Aug 25, 2009 0:05:59 GMT
The young men who join Masonry today are far more knowledgable than in the past. They usually have researched the matter on the internet first. Perhaps the experience of the lodge does not live up to their expectations. They simply leave and and not waste their time. This recharged my mind, body and soul - emasonry has its place but ... I took this before lodge was opened.. the orb at the sacred flame is discernible there could even be a much more subtle one in the IPM chair. I know... its dust, its light reflecting, its whatever you want it to be... However those photos I took after the meeting with the Brn are even more spectacular. And the 200+ photos taken previously showed not signs of dust,light,whatever Maybe to discern the hidden mysteries of masonry we need to hang around a bit and dig for that which is hidden. Maat
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Post by maximus on Aug 25, 2009 2:59:23 GMT
I haven't been to lodge in three months. Is it what I expected when I joined? No. Having been in other esoteric orders, I was severely disappointed. After I heard one of the older Brethren explain that a Black man could not be a Mason because, in our OB, the word "Bondman" precludes them, I haven't been back. That was the most ignorant statement I have heard in a long time.
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Post by maat on Aug 25, 2009 4:18:16 GMT
... and what about us women ... uh-ho..here we go again, mama mia (long live Abba I say!)
Personally, I can't wait for the little green men from Mars to arrive... hope they are a little bit mean, THEN the rest of us will band together. You reckon?
Maat
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Post by magusmasonica on Aug 25, 2009 6:01:42 GMT
I haven't been to lodge in three months. Is it what I expected when I joined? No. Having been in other esoteric orders, I was severely disappointed. After I heard one of the older Brethren explain that a Black man could not be a Mason because, in our OB, the word "Bondman" precludes them, I haven't been back. That was the most ignorant statement I have heard in a long time. This is a rather significant reversal.
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Post by lauderdale on Aug 25, 2009 8:08:12 GMT
Thanks Architekt, a helpful answer.
Is there perhaps too much emphasis on the externals= Charities and Socials and too little on the deeper (internal) aspects of (Craft) Freemasonry? After all these days one is spoilt for choice. A myriad of charities covering every good cause one cares to think of, and some one could not even envisage, clamour at our heartstrings from the TV, pages of magazines, advertising hordings and even those dreadful "chuggers" (Charity Muggers) who block our way in the High Street pretending to perform a survey for some cause or other. One need not join a "Secret Society" or even "A Society with Secrets" nor wear an Apron to help out or contribute cash to a Charity.
Again if the modern person wishes Social activities, the gym, squash club, or less energetic activities abound, or they can meet with friends to have a nice relaxed meal in a pub, some of which these days do reasonable food, or a restaurant. I know that some US posters here mock the "Fish Fry" that some of their Lodges hold and ask "What does this have to do with Freemasonry"- a good question!
It is also very true that Society has changed. The "Boys of the Old Brigade" from WW2 are dying day and daily and with them the group ethos that they embodied. Modern people are more individualistic, they do not want nor need the " organised cameraderie" of their parents and grandparents. They like to pick and chose for themselves and often ask that question that dare not speak its name with their fathers and grandfathers, WHY?. Simply being told to do something by a person with badges of rank no longer cuts it . We also have smaller families and this may well inform the present trend to have a small group of very close friends rather than large one of "associates" as in former times.
Now I hate to ride another of my hobby horses but memorisation is a foreign country to many in the 20+ or 40+ generations and even to a 56 year old middle aged foagy such as myself it is an unnecessary burden although if forced to I can do it as I can if needs be do mental arithmetic but would far sooner use a calculator/ spreadsheet for all but the simplest calculations these days. The modern person has been very unlikely to have had to learn poetry or tables off by heart at school and if suddenly confronted with such a necessity at Lodge to learn words (which to them are likely to be couched in a form of language unfamiliar to them) by rote, they again may well ask WHY? and are put off by such a task. Would it not be better to let them read it and read it well, concentrating on their delivery, and most of all UNDERSTANDING what they are saying, and not on memory?
Can Freemasonry, of whatever form or affiliation, adjust to these societal changes? Will physically Meeting at a Temple become only a few times a year activity with "Telemasonry" conducted over the Internet replacing some of the Lodge Meetings? Will some Masonic Bodies become like the Rosecrucian AMORC which advertises in magazines and conducts its business like a correspondence course?
My own opinion is that whilst individual home study of Freemasonry is not to be discounted and indeed many people myself included benefit greatly thereby, one cannot fully experience The Craft without attending its Ceremonies in a proper Masonic Temple just as one really needs to attend a Church from time to time to gain the full experience of an Organised Religion. Certainly, I cannot see how a Degree could be confered without actually being there to receive it in a properly consitituted Lodge.
Perhaps some Masonic Bodies, GLs etc will have to adjust their ancilliary activites. For example do modern people actually want such matters as a many course Festive Board with Toasts, Speeches etc after every Meeting when to them a simple non-formal and relaxed meal in a pub or restaurant would be preferable? Does the old fashioned "Ladies Night" still cut it with modern couples? Does The Craft need to become "Leaner and Keener?" to recruit and more over to retain members?
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Post by JulesTheBit on Aug 25, 2009 11:55:13 GMT
I think it is a combination of things. Young men do not need the camaraderie of a lodge that an older generation did. If the lodge does not provide a meaningful experience then nowadays a member will simply resign. In the past they stayed a member and paid the annual subs. or possibly went on the country list. The young men who join Masonry today are far more knowledgeable than in the past. They usually have researched the matter on the internet first. Perhaps the experience of the lodge does not live up to their expectations. They simply leave and and not waste their time. Drop out rate now is vastly better than it was in the early days (1700s to 1800s) when, for example, mass initiations took place among seafarers. I saw a presentation last year with some stats from the SW of England that put the rate of continuance of Masonic attendance beyond presentation of GL certificate back then at worse than one in ten! In London and the South-East the 4 year/early MM drop out problem would seem to be improving. It certainly was a problem, but not so much now. I think that's because younger potential members now conduct internet research before they join and those who aren't interested in our ceremonies, charity and social activities etc. don't apply. In previous times, during the age of secrecy/non-response to criticism, initiates often joined with insufficient information about what Masonic membership actually entailed. Hence the drop-out, because they did their research into what freemasonry was after they joined, not before. S&F, Jules
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Post by JulesTheBit on Aug 25, 2009 13:06:20 GMT
Morning all I think that by posing that question, and the previous comments and quotes on this forum there's a certain amount of preaching to the converted. However, for my own part I think that to answer the last questiuon we have to consider the circumstances in which Freemasonry operates and the attitudes and preferences of its members and potential members. Bro. Jules, I know I'm preaching to the converted. The point is, how many of the unconverted, or unaware/whatever, do you sit with in Lodge, and does it have any impact? I didn't intend to come across as negatively as it might appear. Basic email is now well accepted. I am sec or hold some kind of key admin responsibility in several Lodges and Orders, and in those cases over 90% of members have email. Beyond that, usage of Web 2.0 in mainstream Lodges is still very limited though. "Young Freemasons of England" on facebook was publicised in the UGLE university scheme and has around 500 members, or in round numbers about 10 members per participating Lodge. That's a very high proportion when compared to, say, the proportion of Lodge members who use BBS like this one. Outside of Tetragon (which is in the Uni scheme) in my other Lodges 2.0 usage is around 1 or 2 members per lodge. My mother Lodge has 2 but I'm the only one who actively uses Facebook, Twitter etc. My mother Chapter has about 60 members (and average attendance around 40!) but I think I'm the only web 2.0 user. The impact of the latest technology is there, but it's slow in being adopted. Resistance to Facebook/twitter etc is usually based on privacy concerns and the fact that most of the content is inconsequential gossip, even to the point of being inane drivel That's similar to resisting email usage because admins at ISPs can read your mail as it passes through the servers, and saying that 90% of email is junk mail so it's not worth using it at all. I remember a line in "The West Wing" that described the internet as a superior mechanism of distribution for tittle-tattle and pornography. True, but the other advantages are very worthwhile. The privacy and junk problems exist as we know, but can be circumvented quite easily, and used properly email is the best solution in many cases. The advantages are wonderful, and with some help and practice the disadvanatges can easily be negated to the point where email is more private and secure than snail-mail. Web 2.0 is now where internet usage and sms on cellphones used to be; initially used by the young whilst older folks thought it was a passing fad or a niche. We've seen some negative comment here from people who have accepted some new technology, but they don't go much beyond email, BBS and maybe Skype. Those folks have looked at web 2.0 but didn't like what they saw. As I said, a bit like email and SMS in the early days. But older folks eventually saw the advantages of email and sms and embraced them too. Interestingly, I'm noticing some younger people saying that they don't use email much anymore, they use Facebook DM instead. I wonder where that will go. Whilst freemasons continue to be disporportionately older than most take-up of new technology will be slow. The situation is improving but it will take a while yet before most of us are using it. An by then it will be old technology It would help if our leaders did not impose administrative hurdles on usage of new technology, or discourage its use. That's improving too. S&F, Jules PS Isn't ning terrific? I just built a site in under 3 minutes! PPS And didn't Murdoch choose an interesting time to scrap "The London Paper" and announce that his news sites on the net are moving to paid subscription only? If I was proprietor of a traditional newspaper I would be afraid, very afraid
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Post by terrible on Aug 25, 2009 13:13:31 GMT
I didn't intend to come across as negatively as it might appear. I didn't think that you were, Brother. No harm!
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Post by maximus on Aug 25, 2009 14:13:37 GMT
I haven't been to lodge in three months. Is it what I expected when I joined? No. Having been in other esoteric orders, I was severely disappointed. After I heard one of the older Brethren explain that a Black man could not be a Mason because, in our OB, the word "Bondman" precludes them, I haven't been back. That was the most ignorant statement I have heard in a long time. This is a rather significant reversal. No, My principles have not changed in the least. What has is hearing Brethren who should know better espousing that which is contradictory to GL policy. And this from our Lodge Chaplain and one of my mentors.
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Post by JulesTheBit on Aug 25, 2009 14:32:17 GMT
Considering lauderdale's post which covers festive boards, reading ritual, internet & correspondence replacing Lodge meetings, and more:
I think freemasonry is definitely going to change. As has been said above, the desire for camaradie and fraternalism that followed the war, and always seems to exist in times of conflict, is less noticeable now. The large expanion in number of Lodges and individual memberships that took place in the 50s was understandable, but times are different now and we should not expect to even retain, much less recruit, members on that scale.
Some Lodges are expanding, and have a waiting list for canddiates. But if that's how we measure success (the ability to spend our Masonic meeting time exclusively conducting ceremonies for new candidates) then we are going to have to accept a further large reduction in the number of Lodges. Recruitment is not the answer.
Freemasonry has become similar to pyramid selling, where happiness and "prosperity" (spiritual in our case) depends on the ability to recruit a constant number of new members, and that's how we judge "success". Sooner or later the bubble bursts. In our case it burst about 10 years ago.
We will survive, of course we will, but there will be change, even if it is forced upon us.
To change our attitude we need to understand that there is much more to freemasonry than conducting ceremonies, and learning and rehearsing them. The ceremonies and ritual are what distinguishes us, they are vitally important. But they should be just a beginning. We don't put enough time into understanding and practicing the lessons, except perhaps Charity. Charity is only 1 of the great pillars on which our Order rests.
We can use new technology to research, communicate and practice freemasonry outside of the ritual and ceremonies. Technology is just a tool, but it's a great enabler. but we need a change of emphasis in how we practice freemasonry in our meetings.
S&F, Jules
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Post by magusmasonica on Aug 25, 2009 18:58:54 GMT
This is a rather significant reversal. No, My principles have not changed in the least. What has is hearing Brethren who should know better espousing that which is contradictory to GL policy. And this from our Lodge Chaplain and one of my mentors. I am not speaking to your principles. You just used to be a huge cheerleader for the mainstream, they could do no wrong. When anyone ever hinted at racism in TN lodges you would cry to the heavens about how that was nonsense or a lie. I am not ragging on you in anyway, it is just amazing how things change. ;D Love and Light,
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vtmason
Member
Running Dog Lackey
Posts: 251
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Post by vtmason on Aug 26, 2009 12:20:12 GMT
I'm not convinced any group of Craft Masonry is actually growing very much. Of course, as long as they are small the growth will seem significant. All groups of Masonry will be small in the future. That is not a bad thing. Dedicated members who participate and contribute is far better than large numbers. Yes, GLs will have to budget accordingly for smaller amounts of per capita in the future. I would tend to agree. There does seem to be hot pockets though in my particular area. I don't think there has EVER been a shortage of good candidates, but a shortage of good lodges to grow them. Before any organization can grow it needs to know exactly what it wants to accomplish.
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Post by terrible on Aug 26, 2009 14:06:20 GMT
Before any organization can grow it needs to know exactly what it wants to accomplish. Excellent point--which is a great reason to write a "plan of action" or a "mission statement" that states what your goals are. I believe that the SJ of the AASR has something like this on their website somewhere.
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Post by letterorhalveit3 on Oct 1, 2009 8:56:12 GMT
There is a book that i just got a copy of published in 2006 called "The Temple That Never Sleeps: Freemasonry and E-Masonry Toward a New Paradigm."
Im not that far into it but it seems to be exploring how the old model of "Lodge night" and lodge functions might be on its way to being supplanted by "e-lodges," message boards, etc as the primary way of Masonic communication. I disagree that this could ever happen entirely, but to each his own. just thought i would mention the book. Cheers!
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Post by lauderdale on Oct 1, 2009 10:25:10 GMT
Although of course the Internet will never really replace a Lodge Meeting as Freemasonry is a participatory activity. However, the Internet and Fora such as this have certainly widened Masonic Knowledge and I have discovered aspects of The Craft via the Internet that I would never have done at Lodge Meetings or from books alone.
The Internet is also of benefit to housebound Freemason who can no longer attend Meetings owing to infirmity but can keep in touch thereby.
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Post by maat on Oct 2, 2009 0:47:00 GMT
I think e-masonry provides an element of insurance for Masonry worldwide too, it would be much harder to usurp an organisation for one's own benefit or gain. News travels fast.
Maat
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Post by magusmasonica on Oct 2, 2009 0:49:40 GMT
Although of course the Internet will never really replace a Lodge Meeting as Freemasonry is a participatory activity. However, the Internet and Fora such as this have certainly widened Masonic Knowledge and I have discovered aspects of The Craft via the Internet that I would never have done at Lodge Meetings or from books alone. The Internet is also of benefit to housebound Freemason who can no longer attend Meetings owing to infirmity but can keep in touch thereby. It can be a good tool once you wade through al of the muck. You got to have a thick skin though, that much is for sure. Love and Light,
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