Christianity predates Jesus?

[Nosameerf]

Nov 19, 2009 0:10:55 GMT Tamrin said:

Why do you reckon there are seven stars above Orpheus in the picture. I know what the significance of that is in Freemasonry (or I imagine I know!) but is it something different? Also, what do reckon do the similarities between the Orpheus picture above and Jesus on the cross?

Actually, check this out. I had read on Amazon that my book was considered a bit crap by academics but this link below really drives the point home. I would copy and paste but its a big article.

Seem the amulet may be a fake!

www.bede.org.uk/orpheus.htm

[Tamrin]

Thank you for that. The image may well be a fake (it was only added to illustrate the post). Even if it is a fake, it is based on the legend of Orpheus which, as does others, has many parallels to the legend of Jesus.

That said, the linked article is itself somewhat tendentious. For instance its author, James Hannam, states,

he [W.K.C. Guthrie] dismisses the idea that there was a tradition of a crucified Orpheus. He points out, rightly, that Justin Martyr in his First Apology (chapter 55), writing in the second century, had specifically ruled this out

Rather than simply taking this ruling a face value, consider how, to deny such a tradition implies Justin Martyr felt a need to do so, suggesting there was indeed such a tradition, which he wished to discredit. Moreover, reading between the lines of the article, we find the intriguing persistence of that very tradition into medieval times.

I am also uncomfortable with Hannam, evidently a Christian apologist, having stated:

Although it obtained some good reviews from journalists who knew no better (and from rent-a-quote salesman like John Selby Spong), it was ignored by academics as beneath their notice.

Spong ought not be so readily disparaged and dismissed and, being ignored by academics, may not mean the book was wrong but rather that, for them, it contained nothing new but was merely a popularization of current academic opinions (consider works by Thiering and by Allegro).

The article cites an on-going argument between its author, Hannam, and the book's authors, Freke and Gandy, given the tendency of Hannam for exaggeration, perhaps it is significant that he concludes, saying:

In summary, not only is the cover of The Jesus Mysteries probably a fake, but at least one author of the book knew this and kept quiet about it.

So even Hannam, cannot state for certain the image is a fake!? Also, the knowledge of that possibility is a subject of their argument and is denied by the book's authors. Despite being privy to only one side of the argument, in Hannam's testimony (that of a hostile witness), we still find reasons to look favourably on the other side.

[KNOs1s]

It really does not matter much either way. If Jesus lived or if he was an artifice based on earlier notions is of consequence only to those who find it important to their beliefs. Some can find use even in a created artifice.

An interesting article regarding this item is found here:

www.bede.org.uk/orpheus.htm

It is very difficult to make claims regarding these types of items either way without having them examined closely and proven either authentic or fake. Most fakes are shown to be such sooner or later. For example; Hitler, that despotic left-hand path individual, had a diary show up that was easily shown to be a fake. The examples of fakes being brought to light are too numerous to mention.
el-EKRENACHENERI

[magusmasonica]

There was nothing left hand path about Hitler. Hitler wasen't about the sovereignty of self, he was about submission of the individual to the collective.That makes him about as right hand path as one can get.

[KNOs1s]

Hitler definitely was about the sovereignty of himself. He created a facade based on lies, a clear rejection of any authority aside from his much-vaunted, misunderstood Nietzschian will:

"All propaganda has to be popular and has to accommodate itself to the comprehension of the least intelligent of those whom it seeks to reach."


"Great liars are also great magicians."

"If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed."

"Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it."

Seeing that Hitler denies any authority and is an admitted liar to do so, his path is very left-hand. Hitler clearly denies all authority in these very 'left-handed' statements:

"Success is the sole earthly judge of right and wrong."

"The victor will never be asked if he told the truth."

While he never clearly states 'Sovereignty of self', it is clearly indicated in this quote from Mein Kampfe:

"The movement must use all possible means to cultivate respect for the individual personality. It must never forget that all human values are based on personal values, and that every idea and achievement is the fruit of the creative power of one man. We must never forget that admiration for everything that is great is not only a tribute to one creative personality but that all those who feel such admiration become thereby united under one covenant."

That is a small selection of Hitler's 'left-hand path' views. Certainly, he wanted those under him to follow the 'right-hand path' with him as the authority. There are many, many more quotes if requested.
el-EKRENACHENERI

[magusmasonica]

I'm not going to argue with you Kevin, it's a waste of time.


Enjoy yourself.

[KNOs1s]

Here is an image of JESUS AS ORPHEUS, which displays how the myth (analogous to today would be JESUS AS SUPERMAN). It begs the question; if Jesus was depicted as Orpheus, why would there be one figure (Jesus) clearly compared to another (Orpheus)? It seems that Jesus was compared to another figure as one would compare Elvis to Orpheus-both famed and accomplished musicians.