Augur
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Post by Augur on Jan 25, 2010 21:40:54 GMT
Since this came up in another thread, I wondered if we could have a civil discussion about this. Namely, what exactly is the 'Left Hand Path' and 'Right Hand Path' and: a) Why are they named as such and where did the terms originate? b) What are the philosophies and practices that define and differentiate them? c) Are any practices or philosophies truly one or the other? So we have a place to start, I'll quote from Wikipedia:
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Post by magusmasonica on Jan 25, 2010 22:13:44 GMT
Just to be real quick. Don Webb once summed up the differences this way.
"Thou will be done." -Right Hand Path "My will be done." - Left Hand Path
It is my argument that legitimacy is in the hands of the practitioner.
Love and Light,
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KNOs1s
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Post by KNOs1s on Jan 25, 2010 22:16:48 GMT
I am 'left-hand path' by Don Webb's Wiki's definitions. Namaste
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Post by magusmasonica on Jan 25, 2010 22:26:36 GMT
I am 'left-hand path' by Don Webb's Wiki's definitions. Namaste That would be up to you to decide. Whatever works. Love and Light,
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KNOs1s
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Post by KNOs1s on Jan 25, 2010 22:33:56 GMT
So, if the 'right-hand path' works for somebody, then it is a 'left-hand path' choice because they chose it of their own free will without outside coercion? Or basically, 'My will be done, my will is to do your will'? (Insert whatever 'your' means.) Namaste I am 'left-hand path' by Don Webb's Wiki's definitions. Namaste That would be up to you to decide. Whatever works. Love and Light,
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Post by magusmasonica on Jan 25, 2010 22:51:12 GMT
To do anything do to "outside cohersion" is always a bad idea IMHO. ;D
Personally I'm a pragmatist, I use what works.
I like a lot of Right Hand Path systems and ideologies. Confucianism, Shinto, Kabbalah, Rosicrucianism, Swedenborgism, Golden Dawn system. I incorporate elements of all of these in my day to day work.
I also like a lot of what the Left Hand Path has to offer. Setian-Typhonian magick, Vamachara, Alchemical Taoism, Valentine-esque Satanism, Qliphotic Quabbalah, Goetia.
I love Typhonian Hermetics and am really into the Greco-Egyptian cosmology.
On a personal level I have always been high on self sovereignty and I deeply value personal freedom and liberty. I don't believe in sin only cause and effect.
I also really dig hyper Atheistic rationality such as Dawkins, Hitchens and P.Z. Myers.
Do what you like. Explore what you feel like exploring. In the end do it all and determine for yourself what works best.
My $0.02.
Love and Light,
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Augur
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Post by Augur on Jan 25, 2010 23:17:52 GMT
Added a poll, just for fun.
I've also heard the two 'paths' distinguished by the goal of the practitioner. That 'Left Hand Path' works tend to aim towards temporal power, or attainment in this plane of existence while 'Right Hand' works tend to aim for power or attainment on other levels of existence or in the 'hereafter'.
Nice civil discussion so far guys, kudos. Keep it up!
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Post by magusmasonica on Jan 25, 2010 23:52:20 GMT
Added a poll, just for fun. I've also heard the two 'paths' distinguished by the goal of the practitioner. That 'Left Hand Path' works tend to aim toward temporal power, or attainment in this plane of existence while 'Right Hand' works tend to aim for power or attainment on other levels of existence or in the 'hereafter'. Nice civil discussion so far guys, kudos. Keep it up! Sure, I have heard of examples like these. One thing to remember is that many LHP practitioners ultimate goal is to become immortal themselves. So for someone with those goals the plane of existence and what may lay beyond intertwine. A difference in practices for the RHP and LHP magician can be different yet subtle in individual workings. let me give an example. Let's say a Greco-Egyptian Hermetic magician and his wife are attempting to have a baby. Well, they may choose to invoke Hera, the Hellenic goddess of fertility. A RHP magician will invoke to ask for the assistance of Hera in order to accomplish this goal. An LHP magician would invoke Hera in order to take on the persona of Hera in order to accomplish the goal them self. The RHP is in direct and the LHP is direct. Just a sample example. Love and Light,
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KNOs1s
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Post by KNOs1s on Jan 26, 2010 0:04:07 GMT
A magician invoking anybody is 'right handed' as they are not doing it themselves. The assistance is still an assist (if it even works at all) either way you cut it. Anybody needing help having a baby skipped biology class. ;D An LHP can see it as the former, yet still consider it a RHP. As stated earlier, it is up to the practitioner to decide.
"Beauty, not immortality, is the ideal." WOS
Namaste
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KNOs1s
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Post by KNOs1s on Jan 26, 2010 0:41:55 GMT
Let's attempt a thought experiment. A Greco-Roman LHP magician invokes Hera to take on the persona of Hera, assuming Hera is willing to allow this as she is likewise LHP. At any rate, Hera comes to the "sleight-of-hand-man" and says if he wants the wife to have a baby, Hera demands the RHP. The LHP magician agrees because he has no other choice, and the does it the 'right' way.
Scenario 2: An RHP magician invokes (still LHP) Hera, and Hera suggest he do it LHP. He does so, though he is not required.
Both of the practitioners are acting EXACTLY opposite of their chosen path. The RHP acts LHP out of his own free will, and the LHP acts RHP because he is impelled to. The lines certainly seem to blur. Also, a third possibility is the LHP believes he is acting in an LHP manner, yet be entirely mistaken. The same with an RHP.
Namaste
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Post by magusmasonica on Jan 26, 2010 0:49:31 GMT
Forget it. This thread is already circling the drain. Too bad.
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KNOs1s
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Post by KNOs1s on Jan 26, 2010 1:00:23 GMT
It sounds like fun to me, and it is going very well in my LH opinion (imo). Others may wish to join in the thought experiment. Surely, the distinction between LHP and RHP can survive the examination of their similarities and purported differences.
Namaste
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Post by magusmasonica on Jan 26, 2010 4:39:29 GMT
A magician invoking anybody is 'right handed' as they are not doing it themselves. The assistance is still an assist (if it even works at all) either way you cut it. Anybody needing help having a baby skipped biology class. ;D An LHP can see it as the former, yet still consider it a RHP. As stated earlier, it is up to the practitioner to decide. "Beauty, not immortality, is the ideal." WOS Namaste Seriously Kevin, I don't know if you are just trying to be provocative or you believe what you typed here. For the record I am trying to be as sensitive as possible as not to offend the readership of this thread but to declare every invocation as automatically RHP is like me saying that all cars have 4 cylinder engines. Actually, it isn't even that close. It just kills any chance of this developing into what could be a really good topic. Love and Light,
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KNOs1s
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Post by KNOs1s on Jan 26, 2010 5:03:48 GMT
On the the contrary, I am simply seeking out other possibilities than a forced duality that feels rather simplistic and artificial. An investigation into how much the 'right-hand' is actually 'left' and vice versa seems a worthwhile search. I am indeed being serious, with an eye toward humor and entertainment as a partial object. Being provocative is part of engaging new ideas and challenging those ideas that are stuffed in a box. I am being provocative, yet not simply. I provoke and challenge my own notions as well as the accepted notions of others. I think an investigation, to the contrary, enlivens the topic and is true to Augur's initial post of; "Namely, what exactly is the 'Left Hand Path' and 'Right Hand Path'" Yes. What exactly is it? Are the two paths sometimes reflected, opposite, and sometimes identical-or do they defy such notions? Namaste A magician invoking anybody is 'right handed' as they are not doing it themselves. The assistance is still an assist (if it even works at all) either way you cut it. Anybody needing help having a baby skipped biology class. ;D An LHP can see it as the former, yet still consider it a RHP. As stated earlier, it is up to the practitioner to decide. "Beauty, not immortality, is the ideal." WOS Namaste Seriously Kevin, I don't know if you are just trying to be provocative or you believe what you typed here. For the record I am trying to be as sensitive as possible as not to offend the readership of this thread but to declare every invocation as automatically RHP is like me saying that all cars have 4 cylinder engines. Actually, it isn't even that close. It just kills any chance of this developing into what could be a really good topic. Love and Light,
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Post by maximus on Jan 26, 2010 6:40:05 GMT
A RHP magician will invoke to ask for the assistance of Hera in order to accomplish this goal. This would be an evocation, rather than an invocation. This would, indeed, be an invocation. More concisely, an assumption of a God-Form. I'm sure you mean indirect, but this is a generalization and not necessarily so.
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mgc
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Post by mgc on Jan 27, 2010 4:53:09 GMT
to me the lhp sounds fit for individualists where as the rhp sounds more submissive and community based.. this would prolly cause the rhp-ers to frown upon the lhp-ers (and call them satanists etc) and the lhp-ers to laugh at the sheepish rhp-ers..
best option imo? become ambidextrous and get the best of both..
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KNOs1s
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Post by KNOs1s on Jan 27, 2010 5:29:41 GMT
That sounds the most reasonable, the most pragmatic, and the most practical. Individualists are a varied group, and many likely fit into both definitions.
I'm currently reading the Tiny Tim biography, and he was unquestionably an LHP by definition, yet was a deeply religious individual (I never suspected) which it is inferred would make him an RHP by definition. I think Tiny would just laugh. I know I do. I enjoy the joke if few understand it as such. ;D
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Post by Zita on Jan 31, 2010 21:48:24 GMT
How can a 'My will be done' person be suitable for Freemasonry? The apron is the symbol for serving others and the hands are left free for the same reason. The 18th degree is about self sacrifice as are even higher degrees...
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Post by Zita on Jan 31, 2010 21:49:04 GMT
Beware of the sssssssssssssssss-elf
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KNOs1s
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Post by KNOs1s on Feb 1, 2010 19:47:14 GMT
BOTH hands are left open, which suggests the ambidexterity already offered. A 'left hand path' is limiting and ties one hand, thus crippling the individual. Both hands are necessary, and the selection of just one is imbecilic. No need for anyone to stutter over 'sibilance'.
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