Will Vs. Intellect

[magusmasonica]

I was accused in an earlier thread of valuing will over intellect. While I know this was meant to be deeply insulting I see tremendous value in the question and the possibilities of reason that can come from it.. Being the pragmatist that I am I seek to gain the value from all things.

Do I value the Will over Intellect?

I cannot give and immediate answer. I know that a strong will will make up for many defects. A strong will is essential for survival, progress.

A strong intellect is always better than a weak one. The intellectuals have taught us much, all over the world. At the same time, reliance on the intellect can also lead to the disease of Elitism.

I am an anti-Elitist in every sense of the word.

So, do I value Will over Intellect? Not sure, but I sure will consider the possibilities that the question may bring.

Love and Light,

[Tamrin]

magusmasonica said:

I was accused in an earlier thread of valuing will over intellect.

This was a reference to an earlier, vexatious post of yours in which you boasted of having a will ten or a hundred times greater than your intellect (I don't recall which) and vain-gloriously spoke of how you preferred it that way.

As I recall, your post was deleted, but from humorous comments elsewhere, I know that others also saw it.

This is indeed an important topic, as prioritizing will over intellect is a prime hallmark of the LHP.

[lauderdale]

Interesting. The famous film about Hitler was called "The Triumph of the Will"

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triumph_of_the_Will

I am NOT of course accusing Brad of being a NAZI, I know he is anything but! However I do find the comparison of Will being LHP with intellect being RHP somethat interesting. Hitler himself may have been no intellectual, but quite a few of the leading Nazis were, e.g Reinhard Heydrich, Albert Speer to think of two.

There are some who claim that both Hitler and Himmler practiced the Black Arts. I do not know how much truth there is in this assertion or if it was Allied Propaganda in the same manner as many of the allegations of sexual perversion by Hitler and leading Nazis were stories fabricated during the war by Allied Intelligence Agencies.

[lauderdale]

Do we KNOW all the Laws of Physics? Once upon a time it was held that to travel faster than about 30MPH would draw the air out of the lungs and suffocate the traveller. Not true. Likewise that we could never travel faster than the Speed of Sound, again long since thrown in the dustbin of history. Some say today that we cannot travel faster than the Speed of Light. Now what if that is one day disproved by some Extra Terrestrials arriving at Earth and proving that they did just that. I probably won't live that long but I would not be surprised.

Again how do we know that the Laws of Physics as they apply to Earth and this Solar System and Galaxy are universal? There could well be far flung parts of deep space where these Laws do not work.

[maximus]

Will, undirected by intellect, is useless. One must achieve a point of equalibrium in order to progress. Unfocused Will leads to a dissapation of focus - outwardly directed and random; unfocused intellect leads to stagnation and introspection.

[KNOs1s]

As a sidestep, Triumph of the Will is a masterful film by Leni Riefenstahl. It was so effective as a propaganda tool it is scary. After the war, Leni pretty much said it 'was a job'. Hitler likely would have used Fritz Lang, if Lang had not left the country over political disagreement with the direction Hitler was beginning to take. Lang's wife, Thea Von Harbou, author of Metropolis, agreed with Hitler and stayed in Germany.

Hitler loved Lang's Die Nibelungen series of films and it is seen ghosted in Nazi uniforms and rituals.

Now, to return to the topic at hand. Let's try extreme examples to represent 'pure will' and 'pure intellect'. 'Pure will' I would suppose could be represented by an amoeba. It has two purposes; eating and procreation. It serves its entire life fulfilling these two purposes. It completes no tasks aside from that which it feels compelled to do by its nature.

For 'Pure Intellect', this is more difficult to quantify, as much can seem like will that is actually intellect. Let's take Einstein as a 'Pure Intellect' example; though the human creature is so complex that it would be nearly impossible to find a functioning example of 'Pure' anything. Einstein certainly helped science society move forward, and we couldn't exist long without amoebas. An 'either/or' scenario is useful for thought experiments, but not incredibly useful in application. A human of pure will is an amoeba, of pure intellect, a robot.

[magusmasonica]

Feb 3, 2010 10:34:04 GMT Tamrin said:

magusmasonica said:

I was accused in an earlier thread of valuing will over intellect.

This was a reference to an earlier, vexatious post of yours in which you boasted of having a will ten or a hundred times greater than your intellect (I don't recall which) and vain-gloriously spoke of how you preferred it that way.

As I recall, your post was deleted, but from humorous comments elsewhere, I know that others also saw it.

This is indeed an important topic, as prioritizing will over intellect is a prime hallmark of the LHP.

Your posts just get more and more spiteful.

I did say once (quite a few posts ago in another topic) that my will is stronger than my intellect. I have never claimed to be and intellectual, but my will indeed is quite strong. I am pretty tough and resilient. That is a reason why the cockroach is my totem ;D

Love and Light,

[magusmasonica]

In my experience people with strong wills also tend to have strong work ethic. I like that in someone.

Intellectuals are great, no doubt but in certain situations you can have lazy intellectuals and that is of less use.

Love and Light,

[KNOs1s]

In my experience, people with strong wills usually do not take orders very well, nor suggestions all that well. I know, as I am strong willed. You can certainly have 'lazy' strong willed individuals. This is as easy as having lazy intellectuals.

[Tamrin]

Feb 3, 2010 17:57:01 GMT magusmasonica said:

Your posts just get more and more spiteful.

I did say once (quite a few posts ago in another topic) that my will is stronger than my intellect. I have never claimed to be and intellectual, but my will indeed is quite strong. I am pretty tough and resilient. That is a reason why the cockroach is my totem ;D

Spiteful!? I had thought I was being objective. Why is it you feel able to rail against others with vehement invectives, yet others may not point out clear facts in reply? If nothing else, at least my post and your response (and the post to which it referred) establish your claim of being undecided on the matter is at best exceedingly inconsistent, if not plain disingenuous. Albeit, that strategy is consistent with the LHP.

[lauderdale]

"....people with strong wills usually do not take orders very well, nor suggestions all that well."

Yes I could well fall into that category. I have a wide ranging general knowledge but I am not an intellectual nor have I ever pretended to be. I DO however have a very strong will and sometimes will only comply with some policy or directive with which I disagree owing to fear of the legal consequencies, or of loss of employment or the threat of physical force. I can accept failure from people reasonably well, after all they are only human like me, but I am not particularly tolerant of sustained dissent.

[KNOs1s]

As for being an intellectual, I am far too lazy to make such a claim. ;D

[maximus]

Feb 3, 2010 23:54:31 GMT @lauderdale said:

"....people with strong wills usually do not take orders very well, nor suggestions all that well."

Yes I could well fall into that category.

My Mama calls that "hard-headed."

[Tamrin]

Perhaps we ought to consider what is meant by "will" in this instance.

Is it simply motivation or desire? Is it focus, or is that merely an indication of its strength? Is it akin to that psychic force one sees expressed in an infant throwing a tantrum ("I want it, I want it, I want it...")?

For what it's worth, Joseph Priestly (died this day 1804), said:

Will is nothing more than a particular case
of the general doctrine of association of ideas,
and therefore a perfectly mechanical thing

[lauderdale]

My Mama calls that "hard-headed."

Yes I can accept that as a description of myself.

[maximus]

I'm a mite hard-headed myself at times.

[studystudystudy]

I tend to believe that Will and Intellect go hand in hand.
For instance, if one is so hell-bent on achieving a goal, one must seek and gain the applicable knowledge of putting that goal into action. Granted, this means that a person becomes very singularly minded but sill intelligent in that particular field no matter how small. Afterall, where there's a will there's a way.

Likewise, true intellect sparks a motivation for action. This is because with a true intellect comes a true understanding and I believe that once a person understands his/her world there is a primal drive to change it for the better. By definition, any amount of want is a "will" and therefore one could theorize that a self-actualized person has a will to change his environment positively and the higher the understanding of one's environment and personal situation or worldview, the stronger the will.

Nothing like the smell of philosophy in the morning. =P

[Tamrin]

Well said: Give that man a coconut!

Knowledge, inclination and will: Each is needed, in proportions appropriate to the circumstances.

Welcome to the forum.

[theplumbtruth]

Will-power in its base form is inspired by instinct. Survival of the fittest in nature (animal and plant development) results in a progressively stronger species. Add in intellect and that species learns to guide and control that will power. What you do with it next is what defines us as humans.

Using Will for selfish reasons only, as example climbing the corporate ladder may be culturally acceptable but may not be ethically appropriate, still requires use of Intellect. Will used selflessly such as instigating a disaster relief drive may use the same amount of intellect but it’s done for the greater good of humanity.

As we Masonically build our inner temple its how you put that new found strength to work that defines us. While ethics and morality may play a bigger role in defining Will, Intellect is still necessary.

Acknowledging and using willpower isn’t as important as knowing when to control it. Using reason and logic to control it IMO shows a greater use of intellect.

Nobody likes a bully, but who doesn’t like Santa Claus?

[maximus]

Will, in the context the Masonic Magus is reaching for (it's use within Ceremonial) is meant as doing one's True Will, which entails prusuing one's own purpose, thus bringing one's personal Will into alignment with Divine will, thus achieving harmony.

The LHP misconstrues Will, thinking of it in Nietzschean terms (misunderstanding Nietzsche in the proccess, of course, just as they misunderstand the entire purpose of Theurgy).