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Post by mikebishop on Sept 15, 2010 2:34:43 GMT
I know this is a hot button issue but I see mostly reasoned and sane discourse on this forum so I'm very interested in any opinions anyone might have on this.
I've never been to France and I haven't seen many people in burqas in the U.S. but my gut feeling is that French citizens, through their elected officials (as well as other European nations), have the right to enact this legislation.
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Post by rembrandt on Sept 15, 2010 4:16:43 GMT
Sure they can. It is their country and they hold the political power. As a matter of ethics they may want to stop acting like they don't do those things. If a person really believes in freedom of conscience and article of clothing won't be the problem.
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KNOs1s
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I am inclined agree or disagree based on the quality and quantity of proffered information.
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Post by KNOs1s on Sept 15, 2010 7:25:39 GMT
I agree with Rembrandt on this one. They have the 'right' to pass a law requiring people to say grass is orange, yet it is in direct contradiction to freedom of conscience. France has set forth many atrocities of fashion, I cannot see a burqa worse than what passes for fashion there. ;D
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Post by billmcelligott on Sept 15, 2010 7:36:09 GMT
The French Government seems to be going through a 'tough stance' phase right now. They are in trouble with the rest of the EU over expelling Romany people. www.rferl.org/content/EUs_Threatens_France_With_Legal_Action_Over_Roma_Expulsions/2157447.htmlI suspect it is all part of the same policy. Too easy for peoples to walk into France and other Euro Countries and they are worried. But we have to understand that the poor will always want to go where it is better. The only reasonable argument on the Burqa is that it is a way of hiding your identity. For example, here in the UK there are often signs saying that a person is not allowed to enter a building if wearing a Crash Helmet, but if we put up a sign saying Burqa, what is the difference ?
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Post by Leo on Sept 15, 2010 7:51:57 GMT
The French Government seems to be going through a 'tough stance' phase right now. They are in trouble with the rest of the EU over expelling Romany people. www.rferl.org/content/EUs_Threatens_France_With_Legal_Action_Over_Roma_Expulsions/2157447.htmlI suspect it is all part of the same policy. Too easy for peoples to walk into France and other Euro Countries and they are worried. But we have to understand that the poor will always want to go where it is better. The only reasonable argument on the Burqa is that it is a way of hiding your identity. For example, here in the UK there are often signs saying that a person is not allowed to enter a building if wearing a Crash Helmet, but if we put up a sign saying Burqa, what is the difference ? Great post Brother!
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Post by rembrandt on Sept 15, 2010 23:16:20 GMT
If the Republic of France was concerned about it being too easy to walk into France they maybe should not have signed onto the EU. Open travel is a key matter in the EU. From what I understand that is one of the items that the EU is upset with France about in relation to their expulsion (apparently targeted expulsions) of the Roma.
I, personally, think that the burqa worn in a culture like Western Europe's is contrary to the purpose of the garment. Some early Islamic scholars believed that it was inappropriate for women to draw excessive attention by their appearance. Wearing a burqa in Paris will draw people's attention. They make a spectacle of themselves.
Islamic history is quite interesting.
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Post by aogop on Sept 17, 2010 19:21:42 GMT
We are also talking about a nation on the verge of a national strike over extending the retirement age *2* years to 62. They, of course have the right to enact any legislation they wish but it brings to mind a saying I heard years go (that I don't know who to attribute to);
The Engish want to be respected The Germans want to be feared The Americans want to be liked The French want what they want
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Post by parisfred on Sept 19, 2010 8:09:56 GMT
Freedom and tolerance... but also culture and politics.
I loved my country - at least for one reason religion was a personal activities and nobody cares about it... but since a few years it changes and its poisoning everything.
To wear a burqa in Europe in 2010 is a clear cultural and political statement.
The principal target of the Muslims fundamentalist is not only *christian Europe* but the moderate Muslim - french or foreign - that lives in France. They try to create communities within the republic where we are supposed to be citizen. They tried it before with the veil few years ago...
It seems that we had the tools - the theory - to fight all that was backward and hideous in Christianism mostly in Catholicism but we - progressist Europeans - are left mute and weak in front of Islam. Maybe we are afraid of being racist and imperialist.
Not to fall in * the media trap* we must see that the real women problems in some suburbs is maybe more polygamy and women excision than burqa.
The last moral and political fight in Europe is feminism which is more important and respectable than some religion lunacy. Religious freedom stop where it steps on woman rights.
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Post by rembrandt on Sept 19, 2010 14:49:47 GMT
I would recommend that France addresses the real problem instead of the article of clothing. The burqa is not the problem. Immigrants that are hostile are the problem. Maybe France should slow down or stop their immigration programs?
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Post by sammy on Sept 19, 2010 18:19:44 GMT
I agree as well not the problem. Personaly im more offended by the girls in bikinis with signs advertising infront of the strip clubs. My kid deffinately doesnt need to see that, and im not scared of him seeing less of someones face because of a religious practice. Whats next, no turbans?
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Post by parisfred on Sept 23, 2010 11:55:01 GMT
I think thats its not just a piece of clothing its a message. Im ok politically for a ban on any piece of clothing that carry the message that someone is not a free human being because of its gender. Anyway the problem is not the body of women but the vice in the eyes of men - the burqa or the bikinis.
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Post by rembrandt on Sept 24, 2010 3:59:09 GMT
You are right Brother Fred, it is the meaning. So what should be done? Should we refuse to deal with those that oppress and force their ideas down the collective throats of others or focus upon a simple symbol which has no meaning other than what we give it. It must be understood that the Republic of France first allowed these people into their country.
Can we ban clothing because they could be symbols of social status? Some parts of France are quite cold so I wouldn't recommend it.
I am all for France protecting their border and culture. If they do not want those with other ideas to be a part of it they should not be allowed in.
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KNOs1s
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I am inclined agree or disagree based on the quality and quantity of proffered information.
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Post by KNOs1s on Sept 27, 2010 4:18:56 GMT
The banning of clothing feels like a slippery slope to me. If a woman decides to wear a burqa (and is not unduly forced to do so) it really should be left to them. While it may be true that some of that gear is about supposed gender superiority, is it really the place for a "freedom" loving society to say they cannot freely choose to wear them? The problem with freedom is its not the property of those who agree alone. It is the property of all, or it is not freedom.
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Post by rembrandt on Sept 27, 2010 23:49:53 GMT
It comes to a matter of perspective and purpose. Karl Marx and Adam Smith had diametrically opposed ideas. Smith was willing to sacrifice equality for freedom. Marx was willing to sacrifice freedom for equality. This is a false dichotomy. Freedom does not negate equality unless of course we can make ourselves believe that all people are the same height, or make everyone the same height by brute force. We have come a long way in our evolutionary and cultural journey. We should be able to engage each other on the level in civil discourse to develop a society in which everyone can have equal access and equal standing under the law without resorting to legalized theft and murder to achieve a utopian view of equality.
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KNOs1s
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Post by KNOs1s on Sept 28, 2010 8:18:01 GMT
You and I agree on this, Rembrandt. I do not think, for example, it is *right* for anyone to be forced to wear or not wear a burqa, either from a husband or from a government. If an individual *chooses* to follow traditions and wear a burqa, that choice should be theirs. That's all I'm saying. No one should be *forced* to be equal if they choose not to be (and can make it functional for them), just as no one should be forced to be subordinate. I think your last statement was very succinct.
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Post by rembrandt on Sept 28, 2010 11:52:25 GMT
I have just never understood how a gun can be placed against somebodies head to force them to be free or equal.
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KNOs1s
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I am inclined agree or disagree based on the quality and quantity of proffered information.
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Post by KNOs1s on Sept 28, 2010 15:54:28 GMT
It seems people are still willing to try.
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Post by rembrandt on Sept 28, 2010 16:14:11 GMT
. . . and they will keep trying.
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Post by parisfred on Sept 29, 2010 5:54:54 GMT
Knosis " If a woman decides to wear a burqa (and is not unduly forced to do so) it really should be left to them."It s not done like these Many young women in muslim suburbs first start to hide their arms and legs and wear a veil just not "to be provocative". Sometimes its the only way to respected by young man and avoid problems. Burqa it s not a choice - or only for few - most of them are socially and culturally forced to do so to be "free" to go outside. To ban burqa or not looking at it as an innocent tradition is a way to do positive nondiscrimination. On this question this movie : en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_journ%C3%A9e_de_la_jupe explains it more clearly than me...
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Post by rembrandt on Sept 29, 2010 13:07:33 GMT
Brother Fred, I think that the real problem is the relatively lax immigration policy. The Republic of France and the United States of America are dealing with the effects of bad immigration policies so I do sympathize with the situation. Banning the burqa will not suddenly make Muslim women free in France. French law has already taken care of that. There is a bigger problem in that parts of the Muslim community are not integrating into French society. Limiting immigration would be one way to insure that those that do come and petition for citizenship will actually become part of French society instead of forming enclaves that demand special rights.
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