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Post by mikebishop on Sept 15, 2010 0:45:36 GMT
I'm wondering if a member of U.G.L.E. or AF&A.M. can shed some light for me on exactly what the requirement for belief in a Supreme Being in order to be accepted for membership in those obediences is.
Obviously this excludes atheists but what about agnostics?
What about someone who can conceive of a sort of Einsteinian/Spinozian pantheistic "divine" universe?
Or is it more a situation where one is just asked the question and if one replies in the affirmative that is the end of the discussion?
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KNOs1s
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Post by KNOs1s on Sept 15, 2010 1:48:06 GMT
I'm wondering if a member of U.G.L.E. or AF&A.M. can shed some light for me on exactly what the requirement for belief in a Supreme Being in order to be accepted for membership in those obediences is. Obviously this excludes atheists but what about agnostics? What about someone who can conceive of a sort of Einsteinian/Spinozian pantheistic "divine" universe? Or is it more a situation where one is just asked the question and if one replies in the affirmative that is the end of the discussion? When I joined, I had an agnostic outlook with an Eisteinian/Spinozian pantheistic universe. So, obviously I'd say yes. ;D
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Post by torence on Sept 15, 2010 2:45:18 GMT
Though the condition is not generally understood by the membership, under certain circumstances even an Atheist can be a Master Mason here in Illinois. For us, questions of belief can only be required of candidates. If a Brother were to loose his faith neither his Local Lodge nor Grand Lodge has the authority to demand his dismissal. Once a Mason has been made a Master Mason, decisions of faith are left up to his conscience. The test, then, can only be made of a petitioner and I would have to say that any petitioner who believes in Him Who Does All Things Well is eligible for membership. As no man can adequately describe T.G.A.O.T.U. to limit him in how he names the Supreme Manifestation is not in the power of the Lodge or Grand Lodge to decide. So, your view of God in Eleven Dimensions would not be a deal breaker here.
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Post by rembrandt on Sept 15, 2010 4:03:14 GMT
That is interesting indeed if it is supported by the Grand Lodge of IL. Is the requirement of belief, I want to understand this correctly, only a condition of initiation and not continuation?
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KNOs1s
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Post by KNOs1s on Sept 15, 2010 7:19:30 GMT
Having studied the regulations of my jurisdiction, I know of no rule guiding a continuation of belief as a requisite for continued membership. I think it is in my jurisdiction as the brother states it to be in IL.
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Post by Leo on Sept 15, 2010 7:28:29 GMT
Very interesting comments here.
Welcome to the forum, Bro. Mike.
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Post by irishmason on Sept 15, 2010 12:19:26 GMT
In Ireland it is a clear prerequisite for becoming a mason to believe in God. They call it Supreme Being when you are scrutinised, BUt when you are initiated you are asked " in whom.......t? Reply? GOD. What if somebody realy has a Darwinistic, Einsteinian, Gnostic or Agnositc point of view. isn't this a violation of his conscience?
And WHY can an atheist or better WHY can somebody who has severe difficulties to believe in a "Supreme Being" or does not want to believe in a Supreme Being GAOTU etc etc not become a Mason? Why are we excluding excellent men from masonry?
WE will not in the future? Everybody with an open mind is welcomed
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Post by billmcelligott on Sept 15, 2010 13:12:01 GMT
We are not excluding anyone on the lack of Faith in a supreme being. The Darwinistic, Einsteinian, Gnostic or Agnositc simply has to join a form of Freemasonry that does not have that prerequisite.
It is the same if you wish to join the Catholic Faith for example, you join and take up the doctrine it offers. You cant say , 'well the Catholic Faith should include all the people who don't believe in God'. They can come and join with you.
If you join a Masonic Order you know what the conditions are before you join. There are many styles, you just choose the one that suits you.
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Post by Leo on Sept 15, 2010 13:17:50 GMT
In Ireland it is a clear prerequisite for becoming a mason to believe in God. They call it Supreme Being when you are scrutinised, BUt when you are initiated you are asked " in whom.......t? Reply? GOD. What if somebody realy has a Darwinistic, Einsteinian, Gnostic or Agnositc point of view. isn't this a violation of his conscience? And WHY can an atheist or better WHY can somebody who has severe difficulties to believe in a "Supreme Being" or does not want to believe in a Supreme Being GAOTU etc etc not become a Mason? Why are we excluding excellent men from masonry? WE will not in the future? Everybody with an open mind is welcomed I personally feel genuine freedom of conscience should prevail for anyone seeking the Light and a belief in a Supreme Being should not be a prerequisite or a barrier for those wishing to become a Mason. And fortunately it isn't necessary with all GLs to profess such a belief. In any event, one's belief in a Supreme Being, or otherwise, isn't always a true reflection of their character.
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Post by torence on Sept 15, 2010 14:55:12 GMT
Here in Illinois our current GM, M.W. Bro. Rick Swaney is a member if Vienna Lodge No. 150. Before his ascendancy to the Grand East, that lodge was previously notable for a landmark case of its Master, Bro. Crum in 1888. Vienna, Illinois is a very remote and rural place now and was even more so then. (You will find the town on the map near Paducah). W. Bro. Crum formed a society in the 1880s that discounted the Holy Bible as “an Old Jewish Book of Superstitions.” He published a tract while Master of that Lodge entitled “Believe or Be Damned.” The Grand Master then, M.W. Bro. Alex Darrah, expelled him for Atheism an act which was appealed to at our Grand Lodge session in 1889 by the Officers of his Lodge. After trial those Brothers decided that the question was too vexatious of one for the Craft; and G.M. Darrah’s successor, Brig. General John Corson Smith, by order of the Grand Lodge delegates restored W. Bro. Crum. M.W. Bro. Smith then stated: “While not in sympathy with the action of the Grand Lodge, and believing the Holy Bible to be the first and most important of the three great lights of freemasonry, I did not forget that I was there to enforce the laws and edicts of the Grand Lodge.” For us in Illinois, the case proved that questions of belief can only be required of candidates, that once a Mason has been made a Master Mason that decisions of faith are left up to his conscience, that if a Brother were to loose his faith that neither the lodge nor Grand Lodge has the authority to demand his dismissal. The test, then, can only be made of a petitioner and I would have to say that as none of us can succeed in describing the indescribable and even learned theologians are left humbled by the inadequacies of our language and are often vague, that we then cannot be press a candidate to be too specific. A general acknowledgement of the principle should be enough for us.
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KNOs1s
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Post by KNOs1s on Sept 15, 2010 15:02:10 GMT
In Ireland it is a clear prerequisite for becoming a mason to believe in God. They call it Supreme Being when you are scrutinised, BUt when you are initiated you are asked " in whom.......t? Reply? GOD. What if somebody realy has a Darwinistic, Einsteinian, Gnostic or Agnositc point of view. isn't this a violation of his conscience? Why does anything in your above list necessarily exclude a belief in God? I have a Darwinistic, Einsteinian, Gnostic and Agnostic point of view. It was no issue to me at all. Isn't a belief in the Brotherhood of Man or Brotherhood itself a constraint on a Mason and a 'violation of his conscience'? And WHY can an atheist or better WHY can somebody who has severe difficulties to believe in a "Supreme Being" or does not want to believe in a Supreme Being GAOTU etc etc not become a Mason? Why are we excluding excellent men from masonry?
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Post by Leo on Sept 15, 2010 15:33:10 GMT
Everybody with an open mind is welcomed Even serial killers, scam-artists, and tyrants? They can be open-minded too-too much in my opinion. I think we do need *some* standards. Of course we all know that that isn't what Irishmason is saying, so what's to gain with clouding the issue with such comments? In any case, all decent GLs require a person be of good character before they're ultimately accepted, even those that do not require a belief in a Supreme Being. Everybody with an open mind should be welcome to petition any Lodge, and if their character is deemed acceptable they should be successful. If this is followed through then the people you refer to will not succeed. Interestingly, one of the most intelligent and decent people in England right now is author Richard Dawkins the well known atheist, yet should he petition a Lodge that requires a belief in a Supreme Being he'd be refused point blank!
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KNOs1s
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Post by KNOs1s on Sept 15, 2010 16:01:59 GMT
Even serial killers, scam-artists, and tyrants? They can be open-minded too-too much in my opinion. I think we do need *some* standards. Of course we all know that that isn't what Irishmason is saying, so what's to gain with clouding the issue with such comments? It sure seems like it's possible you can be a murderer, a terrorist, or any manner of unsavory types and still have an open mind. Some of them are quite ingenious. I simply point that out. It is the 'love in' attitude that does not always work, and literalism will appear, I guarantee. I simply present the possible (if not probable) road. Because it's not what I.M. means, it can be accurately construed as what he says. In any case, all decent GLs require a person be of good character before they're ultimately accepted, even those that do not require a belief in a Supreme Being. Everybody with an open mind should be welcome to petition any Lodge, and if their character is deemed acceptable they should be successful. If this is followed through then the people you refer to will not succeed. I see here a difference between 'everybody with an open mind' and 'being of a <subjectively> good character'. Now, new constraints are placed on an individuals liberty of conscience. Is not the ability to choose to have or not have an 'open mind' necessary to the 'liberty of conscience'? Is it not a 'violation of an individual's conscience' to 'be of good report'? I am here pointing out where the 'violation of <the subjective> conscience' is self-consistent with what I.M. proposes. Interestingly, one of the most intelligent and decent people in England right now is author Richard Dawkins the well known atheist, yet should he petition a Lodge that requires a belief in a Supreme Being he'd be refused point blank! I don't question that Richard Dawkins is intelligent. Of course, intelligence is not a pre-requisite to being 'open-minded', and some of his material and own admissions do not lean toward his being an 'open minded' individual. Of good report seems reasonable, though he reports himself that he is not the best speaker for atheism in my understanding of his statements. I do trust he'd have the integrity to research and be honest in his petition. I do not know for a fact that he'd be refused point-blank. There have been instances where a lodge has discussed with a person the matter if it appears it might provide a block, and ultimately and honestly the candidate became a Freemason. Be that as it may, his rights are in no way violated. The violation of 'the freedom of conscience' arrives when an organization can tell you how to vote in the political arena, or when the government can make the standards for a private group.
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Post by Leo on Sept 15, 2010 16:21:30 GMT
I do not know for a fact that he'd be refused point-blank. Perhaps it is possible that in some cases exceptions can be made, however in those Lodges where a belief in a Supreme Being is a strict prerequisite of possible acceptance I see no other option than a point blank refusal. In any event, this is purely academic as I imagine all those petitioning such a Lodge would be made aware of the criterion well in advance of any petition being made.
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KNOs1s
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Post by KNOs1s on Sept 15, 2010 16:36:46 GMT
I do not know for a fact that he'd be refused point-blank. Perhaps it is possible that in some cases exceptions can be made, however in those Lodges where a belief in a Supreme Being is a strict prerequisite of possible acceptance I see no other option than a point blank refusal. In any event, this is purely academic as I imagine all those petitioning such a Lodge would be made aware of the criterion well in advance of any petition being made. This is from personal experience, as one Brother in our lodge was taken from the room concerning this matter at the beginning of his journey. The WM left to interview him, at the end of which the Lodge was returned to labor and he was passed in due form. As it turned out, it was a matter of semantics for the individual. Obviously, I cannot speak for every lodge or jurisdiction, yet this one related incident to matters at hand.
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Post by Leo on Sept 15, 2010 18:35:13 GMT
Thank you for that. Yes, sometimes it can simply be a misunderstanding or the unintentional use of ambiguous terminology that can delay things. The importance of clarification can never be overlooked
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Post by Leo on Sept 17, 2010 16:15:53 GMT
In the interest of keeping things on topic I have moved some comments to this thread.Thanks for your understanding.
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KNOs1s
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Post by KNOs1s on Sept 17, 2010 17:12:24 GMT
Understood Brother, and no problem from me.
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ruffashlar
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Post by ruffashlar on Sept 21, 2010 14:44:36 GMT
billmcelligott wrote: It is the same if you wish to join the Catholic Faith for example, you join and take up the doctrine it offers. You cant say , 'well the Catholic Faith should include all the people who don't believe in God'.A different situation, of course, in that millions of people do not join the Catholic Church, but are born into it .... then gradually become atheists over time ;D To say nothing of the fact that Catholic doctrine keeps changing around its members and entirely without their consultation or consent. Hold on! - now that is somewhat relevant to Masonic membership
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KNOs1s
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Post by KNOs1s on Sept 21, 2010 15:18:21 GMT
billmcelligott wrote: It is the same if you wish to join the Catholic Faith for example, you join and take up the doctrine it offers. You cant say , 'well the Catholic Faith should include all the people who don't believe in God'.A different situation, of course, in that millions of people do not join the Catholic Church, but are born into it .... then gradually become atheists over time ;D Actually, I know many Catholics (I am not and have never been one) that hold their beliefs very strongly. Even if they move out of it, they do not necessarily move to atheism. Unless they are persecuted into atheism as they were in Cambodia, China, or the USSR. Or France. Face it; atheists are quickly catching up to any religion in atrocities. ;D To say nothing of the fact that Catholic doctrine keeps changing around its members and entirely without their consultation or consent. Hold on! - now that is somewhat relevant to Masonic membership Some even make up new versions and call it Masonry, though in very important and dramatic ways it does not resemble the Masonry of the earliest documents, either of the operative or speculative. Then, they run around deprecating others who do resemble in dramatic ways the Masonry of the earliest rites and charges. ;D
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