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Post by billmcelligott on Nov 12, 2010 16:03:47 GMT
I seem to be a little late to this point but I need to say a couple of things.
I would fall into line with middlepillar when he says 'I would never want to sit in a Lodge with someone who does not believe.' I would qualify it with also saying this is my opinion. I am happy with any Atheist who would say 'I do not wish to sit in Lodge with a Christian'. Same thing.
The right of choice is a pendalum that swings from one opinion to another. That does not mean one is right and another is wrong, they simply have different views.
We fall into the trap of thinking it is our personal responsibility to make another person believe the same as we do. If you advocate personal choice then dont get annoyed when someone excercises that choice.
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Post by hyperion on Nov 12, 2010 18:10:34 GMT
What if someone is a Deist? In that case there is no need to swear an obligation to any God, as God what not notice or require your prayer.
Is not everything in Freemasonry symbol? Including the obligation.
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Post by billmcelligott on Nov 12, 2010 18:42:41 GMT
No problem for me or most I believe, it is just we have this concept that a belief in a supreme being is essential part.
Does not mean everyone has to agree.
Welcome to the forum.
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Post by hyperion on Nov 12, 2010 19:35:34 GMT
Thank you for the welcome Bill.
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Post by hyperion on Nov 12, 2010 23:38:16 GMT
Actually, this is a topic near and dear to my heart. I left my former jurisdiction due to their requirement of a belief.
Now, I'm religious myself and I prefer deeply proto-religious Freemasonry. I just haven't seen the lack of belief halt the initiatic process.
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Post by jayman on Nov 13, 2010 0:35:27 GMT
Curious as to why a number of posts have "disappeared" in the past 24 hours.
Is this how a Mod says "goodbye"?
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Post by billmcelligott on Nov 13, 2010 8:19:24 GMT
When a poster, Mod or not, removes the account, they are unable to edit post or change any of the posts they have already made. it is possible to delete before they remove the account.
But as always everyone gets the same respect here, beggar or King.
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Post by asiinja on Nov 13, 2010 11:05:53 GMT
I have to follow Leo here.
If it requires to beleave in something to be befriend with eacother then you are already defying the grounds of most beleaves, as the basics of my beleave ar christian I clearly honor some parts my priest used to tell.
"God is our god, he does not judge, as anyone beleaver or non-beleaver will be salvated at the last judgement."
My priest was clearly NEVER following the bible as you guys know it, I once discused a priest about the hell and he had to agree that the modern hell and the way we are judged are never stated in the bible not even in "ero apocalypse".
It is the devina comedia that has shaped our image about, hell and heaven, not the bible.
As I do also beleave that the modern bible is based on what we shouyld know, not what the real message is.
I am raised as a Katholic Christian, I do not know if I beleave in a supreme being, but I do know that I beleave in myself, in my friends, even in the random stranger on the street.
THis are the basics of my beleave, and I am sure that I will come to the fact where I can accecpt that this god gives me the strenght to beleave this.
As you cannot sit in the same lodge with someone without a beleave of a supreme being, then I do not know in wich supreme being you beleave.
Atheists and non beleavers have the STRENGHT to go trough life without the need of a supreme being they can put strenght out of themselves or their brothers around them.
That in my eyes is freemasonship.
That is in my opinion "The meaning of life"
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Post by billmcelligott on Nov 13, 2010 12:13:55 GMT
You have your belief and that is just fine. I am not asking you to change it or alter it in any way.
My freemasonry requires a belief in a supreme being. i can sit in lodge with Muslims, Buddhist , Catholic, Greek Orthodix, Hebrew, Hindu and so on, however it does not allow me to attend Lodge meetings with non believers , or female Freemasons. that does not make my Freemasonry better than yours it just makes it different.
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Post by asiinja on Nov 13, 2010 12:23:04 GMT
You have your belief and that is just fine. I am not asking you to change it or alter it in any way. My freemasonry requires a belief in a supreme being. i can sit in lodge with Muslims, Buddhist , Catholic, Greek Orthodix, Hebrew, Hindu and so on, however it does not allow me to attend Lodge meetings with non believers , or female Freemasons. that does not make my Freemasonry better than yours it just makes it different. True I can just see that your opinion is quite closed. I do ask you, does beleaving in a supreme being make you different from atheists?
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Post by hyperion on Nov 13, 2010 19:48:05 GMT
I don't see why someones belief or lack of should effect anothers Masonic experience. If someone doesn't believe and for reasons significant to them they decide to join a Masonic lodge, more power to them.
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Post by jayman on Nov 13, 2010 20:28:41 GMT
You have your belief and that is just fine. I am not asking you to change it or alter it in any way. My freemasonry requires a belief in a supreme being. i can sit in lodge with Muslims, Buddhist , Catholic, Greek Orthodix, Hebrew, Hindu and so on, however it does not allow me to attend Lodge meetings with non believers , or female Freemasons. that does not make my Freemasonry better than yours it just makes it different. True I can just see that your opinion is quite closed. I do ask you, does beleaving in a supreme being make you different from atheists? You seem to forget that masonry was founded by god worshipping men with an insistence in that belief. The creation of lodges not requiring this belief is relatively new. You have your beliefs. Bill has his. You have your masonry. Bill has his. I have not read any comments by Bill or Chris that would indicate they have a superiority complex about masonry. The way I read it, they are firm in sitting in a traditional masonic lodge that practices masonry the way it was in 1717. This does not make them better masons nor does it make you a lesser mason. It makes each masonry different and we need to respect that each mason likes his or her own kind of masonry and wants to practice it the way it was intended by its' founders.
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Post by hyperion on Nov 13, 2010 20:33:53 GMT
From a practical point of view it would seem to base a 21st century organization on 18th century best practices would not be a good idea.
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Post by middlepillar on Nov 13, 2010 22:03:00 GMT
True I can just see that your opinion is quite closed. I do ask you, does beleaving in a supreme being make you different from atheists? Is this a trick question!? If someone does not believe in a Supreme Being and someone else does then that makes them different. It may not make them better that would be for each individual whom they both meet to judge but it does make them different. I would like to clarify something as well. I believe any person has a right to join Freemasonry in whatever form they are enabled too. I have spent years on this particular Forum campaigning for the right of women to be recognized as 'proper' Freemasons, I have no problem with homosexuals being Freemasons I would and do happily sit in Lodge with any brother who is homosexual, if my GL allowed me I would be the first in the line to attend a meeting. It is simply that my GL does not allow me to do this. I freely and openly discuss Freemasonry with anyone on this Forum and would do so over a beer in a Pub or cafe etc. I acknowledge that some GL's admit Athiests into thier particular blend of Freemasonry and I do not state that they are wrong it is up to them. I have only stated in my opinion and my own personal belief in what the 'point' of Freemasonry is which I have reached after 22 years of researching the subject, that I personaly would not want to sit in a Lodge with an Athiest. I will also try to expand this slightly hopefully with out giving offence! I know at least 2 brothers in UGLE that have come up to me and said they are struggling because they no longer felt they believed in a Supreme Being. My opinion on this is that they believed when they took thier obligation and they have both proved themselves to be good brothers so it is up to them, I would not insist they no longer remain a member. As I said on an earlier thread, that in life we should all be flexible and I am sure there are many Athiests out there that would make great Freemasons. It is just my personal choice that I prefer to sit in Lodge with brothers who believe in a Supreme Being. Hyperion. I do not believe Freemasonry is a 21st century organisation, it isnt what I joined and although we must survive in the 21st Century the more practices we keep from earlier times the better as far as I am concerned. Change is definately not always for the better.
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Post by asiinja on Nov 13, 2010 22:09:52 GMT
True I can just see that your opinion is quite closed. I do ask you, does beleaving in a supreme being make you different from atheists? You seem to forget that masonry was founded by god worshipping men with an insistence in that belief. The creation of lodges not requiring this belief is relatively new. You have your beliefs. Bill has his. You have your masonry. Bill has his. I have not read any comments by Bill or Chris that would indicate they have a superiority complex about masonry. The way I read it, they are firm in sitting in a traditional masonic lodge that practices masonry the way it was in 1717. This does not make them better masons nor does it make you a lesser mason. It makes each masonry different and we need to respect that each mason likes his or her own kind of masonry and wants to practice it the way it was intended by its' founders. True but the question is and sorry for this BIG words? Isnt saying we accept every humand being regardless beleaves sortof hypocritical then? -What of those whom are shocked by their faith due to the hystory of the church for example? -What of those abused by priests ( happends in any religion ) -What of those who do just not beleave at all or just in humanity? Do they not have the right to be in a traditional lodge? You cannot drag in teh past because the most recently you have to be a catholic, or a templar. A little bit earlier you had to be a pagian. Freemasonry was'nt invented in the united kingdom, it was just named and made public there. Those so name Oficial Instances covering Lodges have no right in my opinion to not allow other masons. They defy the very standards and beleaves of the very oaths they swore to follow. People who defend those standards, follow them blindly or do not want to face the truth that most people have a reasaon not to beleave in a supreme being are Hypocrits. I am no atheist I beleave in a supreme being, I am christian and I think many freemasons are, you forget your own religion and faith: Thou shalt not judge. Only thyselve. End of discussion for me
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Post by hyperion on Nov 13, 2010 22:32:09 GMT
Middlepillar, I disagree. To say that Freemasonry was founded as a 21st century organization would be false. To say that it now has to be a 21st century organization is correct, because that is where both it and we find ourselves.
I'm not sure there is much of 18th century life I find enviable. Having to fear hanging or beheading from the state for having different political views from the masses, being a homosexual or being a woman who looks a man in the eye.
No thanks.
We tend to have romantic notions or what we cannot experience.
I for one like my Freemasonry 21st century style. For the above reasons and more.
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Post by billmcelligott on Nov 13, 2010 22:44:25 GMT
You have your belief and that is just fine. I am not asking you to change it or alter it in any way. My freemasonry requires a belief in a supreme being. i can sit in lodge with Muslims, Buddhist , Catholic, Greek Orthodix, Hebrew, Hindu and so on, however it does not allow me to attend Lodge meetings with non believers , or female Freemasons. that does not make my Freemasonry better than yours it just makes it different. True I can just see that your opinion is quite closed. I do ask you, does beleaving in a supreme being make you different from atheists? My opinion is not closed in the sense you wish to place it. i believe and why should I not believe. It is illigical to say someone has a closed opinion and hold onto the opposite opinion. They are either both closed or both tolerant.
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Post by middlepillar on Nov 13, 2010 22:58:39 GMT
True but the question is and sorry for this BIG words? Isnt saying we accept every humand being regardless beleaves sortof hypocritical then?
Why? My GL accepts any man that believes regardless of belief but belief is a requirement and again it is one I believe in-Sorry for not agreeing with you!
-What of those whom are shocked by their faith due to the hystory of the church for example?
-What of those abused by priests ( happends in any religion )
-What of those who do just not beleave at all or just in humanity?
What about them? There is nowhere on this thread where anyone has stated they cannot be Freemasons, I cannot see what you are arguing about, other than trying to forcibly make me change my own belief!
Do they not have the right to be in a traditional lodge?
They cannot by the rules of my GL join a UGLE lodge which would be the same for a woman
You cannot drag in teh past because the most recently you have to be a catholic, or a templar. A little bit earlier you had to be a pagian.
Not dragging in the past!
Freemasonry was'nt invented in the united kingdom, it was just named and made public there.
Never stated once it was!
Those so name Oficial Instances covering Lodges have no right in my opinion to not allow other masons.
On this Forum you are allowed to express you own opinion without censure!
They defy the very standards and beleaves of the very oaths they swore to follow.
I respectfully disagree
People who defend those standards, follow them blindly or do not want to face the truth that most people have a reasaon not to beleave in a supreme being are Hypocrits.
As stated you are entitled to your opinion, I am sorry you are trying to describe me as a hypocrite when you really do not know me, I find the remark immature and offensive, we have only discussed one subject yet you are so quick to judge yourself with very little info to make that judgement!
I am no atheist I beleave in a supreme being, I am christian and I think many freemasons are, you forget your own religion and faith:
Thou shalt not judge. Only thyselve.
Please dont start quoting the bible to me! You must understand it is not Gods word, it is mans interpretation of Gods word! We must all live according to our conscience, in my own opinion a man who has to resort to quoting the Bible is by my definition losing any argument or discussion he may be having. Use your own words try to justify your argument with your words or words that can be proven to of come from the source cited!
End of discussion for me
Shame! It is good to talk and discuss!
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Post by middlepillar on Nov 13, 2010 23:02:10 GMT
Middlepillar, I disagree. To say that Freemasonry was founded as a 21st century organization would be false. To say that it now has to be a 21st century organization is correct, because that is where both it and we find ourselves. I'm not sure there is much of 18th century life I find enviable. Having to fear hanging or beheading from the state for having different political views from the masses, being a homosexual or being a woman who looks a man in the eye. No thanks. We tend to have romantic notions or what we cannot experience. I for one like my Freemasonry 21st century style. For the above reasons and more. I am sorry Hyperion I mean to say that Freemasonry is an organisation that was deeply rooted in the past and certain precepts, allegories, morals etc from that time are for me the root of what Freemasonry is, of course it exists in the 21st Century. The diffeence is that I believe it needs to hold on to more of the past than you do!
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Post by asiinja on Nov 13, 2010 23:19:47 GMT
You seem to get me wrong you do not have to verify or defy your opinion over mine, I do not want change yours neither, I beleave that everyone has to find his own opinion.
Yes I judged. I judged the ones whom judged. Because they told not to judge, so I do infact not judge, I just remind them to their very own standards.
Lets forget what I said, the essence of my message and maybe I should have been shorter and clearer is.
Why is the bleave in yourself or in humanity, the beleave of happiness, the beleave off to be there for eachother.
Why is that not enough?
I do not want to be shiped off on something else, I want an answer on that very question.
If someone can give me a reason why that is not enough to start the path of selfdevelpoment even trough classic freemasonry.
And just to verify I do not beleave any word said in the bible, but I can feel the message intended to pass trough it. And you cannot denial that jesus is the very foundation of Christianity itself.
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