|
Post by vajranagini on Mar 31, 2011 1:46:55 GMT
The Third Degree of OTO talks about Mansur el Hallaj, the great Sufi martyr who was condemned to death for heresy; he asserted that he, himself was the Truth, while in an 'ecstatic" state. Another Sufi master got himself into a lot of trouble when he asserted that an "inner pilgrimage to Mecca" was all that was necessary. It is said that "any step forward in morality must be immoral to begin with"; it would seem that any step forward in religion must defy religious norms. Risky business, that! If Hallaj had made his assertion on the Internet, nobody would have been able to get to him as easily! O.T.O. knows NOTHING about Sufism. I was in William Blake Oasis for 3 years and I have been a member of 3 different Sufi Orders. I am both a practicing Muslim and a Freemason. You can talk and talk about Sufism as a Thelemite but in the end, your people are still having orgies at their get togethers (see? I know...), getting high on all kinds of drugs, having their relationships collapsing left and right...you have no self - mastery. Well, I CAN say that the OTO Lodge I belonged to didn't have orgies (at least none that I was invited to) but the Lodgemaster was charged with molesting minors, and the Treasurer couldn't be trusted around money and was a full-time drug dealer; the last Equinox Rite I attended was held in a S& M dungeon; does any of this qualify according to your standards? ;D
But...the fact is, that while the OUTER form of the Lodge was in a disgraceful state, it was and is a FACT that I was initially "directed" to join OTO by the Angelic Powers, (otherwise I would NEVER have done so) AND I did discover as a result of my joining that I had in fact long been part of the "93 Current"...at least 10 years previous to my joining OTO..If I had not joined, I would never have found any of this out!
When I inquired as to WHY I needed to join this dubious organization, I was told it was "because in order to make the progress I wanted to make, I needed to receive a Masonic-type ritual initiation in this lifetime to be able to access certain levels of knowledge and awareness that were otherwise closed off to me". It was left up to me to decide how much or how little I wanted to "participate" in the outer forms; the Initiations were the thing that was necessary.
True: the OTO is a 'dirty Path", but, as I discovered, it is a Path none the less! The great Sufi Master Ramakrishna forbade his disciples to criticize the Left-Hand Paths, saying that since people had actually 'achieved" by these means, they too had legitimacy. BUT they were best avoided by most people.What use is it if you talk to jinn? So what? You "summoned" something and established communication. So what??? Obviously you don't read properly. I said that I SAW a fire Elemental peering at me out of a candle flame; I never SPOKE to it. Plus, it was a very refreshing experience to actually SEE something like that: it helps remind one that these things REALLY DO exist and are not just theoretical. Would it make you feel better if I told you I have also had conversations with the Archangel Michael and Uriel? In fact it was THEY who advised me to join OTO! What good does sit do most Thelemites in life? It's just another addiction to the ego. And in the end, I have seen the results in O.T.O. Please...don't even begin to speak of Mansur 'Ibn al Hallaj and his experience in fana. What do you know about that? I know enough...what if I said that it was finding out about Mansur El Hallaj at the heart of the OTO Third degree that fully "legitimized" the whole experience for me?It was his own Sufi Shaykh who gave the order of execution! Did you know that? Thank you for telling me that. I have always wondered: who "started the ball rolling?" And why? Because he breathed the Secret! This is why the pool of his blood formed the 100th name of the Beloved, "ALLAH." on the floor, in Arabic. That brings tears to my eyes, to read that! That was why Socrates had to die, as well. There is a hint of this in Crowley's "There is no God but MAN," but Crowley's inner understanding is flawed. You got THAT right. That was why I ultimately had to LEAVE the OTO The droplet is not the Ocean. Once divided from the source it acquires completely different qualities and even in REMEMBRANCE (Dhikr, the meditation of Sufism actually means "Remembrance" and this is why...) of ALLAH one only catches a glimpse of what came before the Covenant of "Alastu bi Rabbikun." Even in fana, this is only a glimpse and one not to be divulged to the profane for reasons such as this: that you get people with lofty goals driven by their egos to understand with their little, limited minds what can only be grasped by spirit. Exactly right.Crowley imagined that O.T.O. would someday be a HUGE, worldwide Masonic institution. O.T.O. is the laughing stock of Masonry. It will NEVER be accepted as a part of CLIPSAS. Even the most open minded Masons of Memphis Misraim find it an embarassment. I have no trouble believing that. How can any Order whose philosophy excludes and degrades half the human race be "universal"? And the ones who do not have either never been in O.T.O. to know all about their stupid sex and drug orgies or cover them up as a "part of the path of the seeker." And THAT is a load of horse crap, finely served on the plate of the Thelemite; gobbled up as he or she proudly asks for more. Well, don't forget: "OTO" stands for "Occidental Tantric Order or "Ordo Templi Orientis; i.e. the Order of the Eastern Temple, implying the practice of "orgiastic rites". Shri Ramakrishna was in fact initiated through "left hand practices"...the difference is, is that HE MADE IT THROUGH. He was exposed to appalling practices and stark temptations and none of any of this diverted him from the Path
Ramakrishna had great regard and respect for women; Crowley abused, disrespected and mistreated them.Therein lies the difference.
|
|
|
Post by maat on Mar 31, 2011 23:47:51 GMT
Enlightened people are patient, gentle and kind. We all have some ways to go. This I know.
|
|
|
Post by vajranagini on Apr 1, 2011 2:05:59 GMT
Some are, some aren't. Shri Ramakrishna said that upon enlightenment one may become a "saint", a "madman" or a "child", depending on one's temperament. I am the "Woman on the side of Din" (Mars/Geburah) so quite naturally I will be of a confrontational and independent nature. One should always bear in mind that a very great deal (practically all) of the "enlightenment" literature out there is geared towards MEN, thus the emphasis on "kindness and gentleness" as desirable qualities for the "enlightened" [men] to develop. The opposite is true for women: they need to develop qualities of will, independence of thought and self-determination.
|
|
|
Post by vajranagini on Apr 1, 2011 2:09:25 GMT
Yup, I'm BAAAACK! ;D
So has this Mad Dervish poster been back? He looks like the REAL THING: I've got some QUESTIONS for him!
|
|
|
Post by vajranagini on Apr 1, 2011 2:12:25 GMT
Nice rationalization. Yes, it IS, isn't it? It has the added advantage of being TRUE.
|
|
|
Post by maat on Apr 1, 2011 2:27:32 GMT
Some are, some aren't. Shri Ramakrishna said that upon enlightenment one may become a "saint", a "madman" or a "child", depending on one's temperament. I am the "Woman on the side of Din" (Mars/Geburah) so quite naturally I will be of a confrontational and independent nature. One should always bear in mind that a very great deal (practically all) of the "enlightenment" literature out there is geared towards MEN, thus the emphasis on "kindness and gentleness" as desirable qualities for the "enlightened" [men] to develop. The opposite is true for women: they need to develop qualities of will, independence of thought and self-determination. The fact that there remains the need to develop certain qualities indicates that entities remain unenlightened, they are still on the journey of discovery. The truly enlightened know the plan and see that it works well. They are then able to remain calm and detached. Like you, I find myself on Geburah and given the task of planting seeds. Good think I have a Cert. Horticulture.
|
|
|
Post by vajranagini on Apr 1, 2011 2:32:28 GMT
The fact of "making discoveries" never ends. Just think how tedious it would be to come to 'the end"! Like Crowley said:"as soon as you come to 'the end' of anything, you find it is 'the beginning"!
|
|
|
Post by vajranagini on Apr 1, 2011 4:16:21 GMT
Pity Thelemapedia is down - I would have recommended our learned friend take his(?) expertise there! So, anyone know when it's going back up again? I have a question about AC' s writings that I want answered!
|
|
|
Post by rembrandt on Apr 1, 2011 21:31:06 GMT
I happen to know MadDervish and yes, he is the real thing. The man stayed in my home for a short time. I know him and his quality.
|
|
|
Post by vajranagini on Apr 2, 2011 4:28:58 GMT
Well, I hope he makes his way back here; I would love to hear more about Mansur ("I am the Truth") el-Hallaj. I was most interested to learn that it was Mansur's own 'guru' who denounced him; goes to show that even those who are 'advanced" enough to be teachers can be WRONG about the capacities of their students!
Would I be wrong in speculating that Mansur's 'sin' was to "assume the God-Form" of Truth; I I speak subject to correction, but I have been told that an essential feature of Islam is that it refuses to accept the notion that God/Allah can "descend into", and manifest through, a human being, and thus Mansur el-Hallaj had to die for his "blasphemy".
This is a true story I am about to tell; that is to say, it actually happened and is not a made-up fable. Shri Ramakrishna got into a discussion with his patron/devotee Mathur Babu. Mathur asserted that even God had to obey His own laws. Ramakrishna, on the other hand, asserted that "the One who made the laws can surely break them at will, or even change them completely if it is His wish". Mathur vigorously disagreed, saying that 'for instance, a red-flowering China Rose will never give forth white blossoms, for it is His law".Ramakrishna shook his head in smiling disagreement -and there the discussion rested.
The very next day, as Shri Ramakrishna went for his morning constitutional, he came to a China rose bush- and there on one branch, side by side, were a bright red blossom...and a pure white one. He broke off the twig with the two blossoms, took it to the house, and dropped it in front of Mathur as he sat at breakfast. "Here you go!" he exclaimed. "Yes, father, I am defeated!" conceded Mathur in amazement and awe .
|
|
|
Post by jayman on Apr 2, 2011 12:56:53 GMT
I thought it stood for "Oblivious Toronto Outcasts"
|
|
|
Post by vajranagini on Apr 2, 2011 15:03:48 GMT
I guess you thought WRONG, eh? But at least I have got you THINKING; that in and of itself, is an improvement!
|
|
|
Post by jayman on Apr 2, 2011 20:38:53 GMT
I guess you thought WRONG, eh? But at least I have got you THINKING; that in and of itself, is an improvement! In hindsight, I see where I was wrong. I retract my original comment and replace it with "Obtuse Toronto Outcasts"
|
|
|
Post by vajranagini on Apr 3, 2011 0:35:34 GMT
Well, you've got a long way to go to impress me yet: when Crowley chose to criticize the caliber of modern-day thinking in "Magick Without Tears", he was able to come up with a THOUSAND adjectives to express his disdain and contempt for the whole genre! ( My Israel Regardie-edited copy of MWT only included about 300 of them. and related the feat of the rest in a footnote!)
|
|
|
Post by vajranagini on Apr 3, 2011 0:43:27 GMT
So, six more days to go before the 8th, 9th, and 10th of April 2011, the 107th anniversary of the writing of Liber Al vel Legis, Crowley's famous 'Book of the Law". the best thing i remember about OTO was the evenings of the reading of the Book, a number of which I hosted...
I supplied the "music" for the occasion: a tape of the sounds of the Universe, as recorded and transmitted to earth by Voyageur; each side of the tape was exactly the right length of time for the reading of one chapter. Many people told me afterwards how powerful they found that evening!
|
|
|
Post by jayman on Apr 3, 2011 1:27:19 GMT
Well, you've got a long way to go to impress me yet: when Crowley chose to criticize the caliber of modern-day thinking in "Magick Without Tears", he was able to come up with a THOUSAND adjectives to express his disdain and contempt for the whole genre! ( My Israel Regardie-edited copy of MWT only included about 300 of them. and related the feat of the rest in a footnote!) You assume that anyone here should wish to impress you. You are known by some here and frankly, you have zero cred on this forum. Toronto is a pretty small town and your past moves with you.
|
|
|
Post by vajranagini on Apr 3, 2011 19:29:59 GMT
Well, I certainly don't plan to let the fact that YOU have ZERO credit with ME, stop me from posting! ;D
Did your sources in Toronto tell you about the time I and another member performed the Rite of the S.'.S.'. at an OTO event? You coulda heard a PIN DROP.
I had my OWN reasons for wanting to perform that Rite, of course; if anyThelemic types reading this were paying attention and were 'clued in" to the Qabalah, they would have already caught on to the fact that the Rite of the S.'.S.'. is the 36th entry in the "Book of Lies", so-called...
|
|
|
Post by vajranagini on Apr 3, 2011 19:33:25 GMT
I happen to know MadDervish and yes, he is the real thing. The man stayed in my home for a short time. That was probably as long as he could stand it. I know him and his quality. Well, maybe there is hope for you after all... Although I shouldn't judge hastily; it is quite possible for a very blind pig to stumble upon high quality acorns...
|
|
|
Post by middlepillar on Apr 3, 2011 19:56:43 GMT
I think we have now had enough of this stupid uneccessary tit for tat. The above comment is an example of what will not be tolerated in the future
I will start modifying and deleting posts if it continues
|
|
|
Post by vajranagini on Apr 3, 2011 20:15:14 GMT
At least I'm not swearing, eh?
Funny how the mods didn't see the need to speak up earlier when I was the one who was the terget of verbal harassment; it's only NOW, when I started standing up for myself, that the mods appear out of nowhere!
deleted insult to moderator.
I will try again - respect is a two way street
|
|