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Post by billmcelligott on Nov 25, 2010 15:20:24 GMT
For the first time ever I have banned a member from the board.
i believe this forum was being used on an individuals agenda, and that is not what it is for.
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Post by jayman on Nov 25, 2010 16:39:38 GMT
Sorry you had to go that far Bro. Bill. I know you didn't make the decision lightly.
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Post by vajranagini on Nov 26, 2010 3:45:34 GMT
Shall we continue the topic? It's one of my favourites, though it wasn't always...
I found "The Second Messiah" MOST compelling; in fact I will say that it offers the most plausible explanation I have heard thus far for the curious image on the Shroud of Turin. I could EASILY see the Chief Inquisitor having come up with the idea to 're-create' the crucifixion as a means of torturing the Supreme Grand Master of the Knights Templar, accused as they were of "blasphemy"...
That also brings up the question that has always arisen whenever any mention of the KT comes up: WHY was the Supreme Grand Master "LEFT BEHIND"?
It was plain that the Temple had had advance warning of the plot against it; if this were not so, the Templar fleet would never have been able to LEAVE the port of La Rochelle BEFORE the king's men closed in... yet they depareted the night before, and left their Supreme Grand Master behind!
Do you suppose Jacques de Molay CHOSE to STAY BEHIND and "go down with the Temple"? It certainly has always appeared that way to ME...
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Post by jayman on Nov 26, 2010 13:33:14 GMT
As leader of the order, he had to personally answer to the charges.
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Post by sid on Nov 26, 2010 13:40:43 GMT
As leader of the order, he had to personally answer to the charges. Correct me if I'm wrong, but he was also burned at the stake on the island of cité on the river Sien(Spl?) with his Preceptor as well.
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Post by vajranagini on Nov 26, 2010 22:43:55 GMT
Yes, according to "The Second Messiah", Jacques de Molay was burned on the 19th of March,1314, and Geoffroi de Charney was burned the next day on the same pyre.
True enough, JDM would have had to stay behind...but that STILL raises the question of WHY did the Templars not FIGHT their way out or lift a hand in their own defense? They were the doughtiest of warriors and surely had the ability to defend themselves and their Temple against what was ultimately proven to be FALSE accusations? There is no explanation extant for the mysterious and inexplicable capitulation of the Knights Templar!
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Post by sid on Nov 27, 2010 0:41:39 GMT
Yes, according to "The Second Messiah", Jacques de Molay was burned on the 19th of March,1314, and Geoffroi de Charney was burned the next day on the same pyrTrue enough, he would have had to stay behind...but that STILL raises the question of WHY did the Templars not FIGHT their way out; they were the doughtiest of warriors and surely had the ability to defend themselves and their Temple against what was ultimately proven to be FALSE accusations? There is no explanation for the mysterious and inexplicable capitulation of the Knights Templar! Greetings one and all, Have you heard of the 'Fama Fraternitatis' (1614) the 'Confessio Fraternitatis' (1615), and the 'Chemical Wedding of Christian Rosenkreuz, Anno 1459' (1616) ? Take the date of the 'Wedding' 1459 and subtract 145 from it and you will get the year of the death of Jacques de Molay. Add 145 and you will get the year that the vault of Christian Rosenkreuz was 'discovered' and opened. The year of the wedding is regarded as the 'axis' of the world.
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Post by jayman on Nov 27, 2010 2:07:12 GMT
Yes, according to "The Second Messiah", Jacques de Molay was burned on the 19th of March,1314, and Geoffroi de Charney was burned the next day on the same pyre. True enough, JDM would have had to stay behind...but that STILL raises the question of WHY did the Templars not FIGHT their way out or lift a hand in their own defense? They were the doughtiest of warriors and surely had the ability to defend themselves and their Temple against what was ultimately proven to be FALSE accusations? There is no explanation extant for the mysterious and inexplicable capitulation of the Knights Templar! The answer to your question was also in the Knight/Lomas book.
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Post by vajranagini on Nov 27, 2010 2:15:51 GMT
Was it? Where was it exactly?
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Post by rembrandt on Nov 27, 2010 6:55:13 GMT
There are no answers in Knight and Lomas' book. There is a great deal of entertaining speculation. If anyone really wants to know they should buy the ticket and take the ride.
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Post by jayman on Nov 27, 2010 13:45:43 GMT
Was it? Where was it exactly? All the reasons why Philip would want them dead, would make every other King in Europe want them dead as well if they used deadly force to defend themselves. The largest freestanding army and navy in the known world at the time. They had presence in almost every country in the known world. Above the law. Holding untold amounts of religious artifacts. More money in their vaults than most countries had. Every major King in Europe in debt to them. Their ranks filled with the children of every major aristocratic family in Europe (children of dukes, barons, earls, marquis' etc) If they used force to defend themselves, every King in Europe would have called for their heads and went to war with them. Also potentially causing civil war from some aristocratic families supporting the Templars. it would not have been pretty.
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Post by maximus on Nov 27, 2010 18:51:11 GMT
The story turned out quite differently in Germany. The Templar commander there barged in to the Ecclesiastical court, in full armor, and demanded trial by combat. No one took him up on it. They left unmolested, later to join the Teutonic Knights after the dissolution of the Templars.
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Post by vajranagini on Nov 28, 2010 4:03:38 GMT
There, you see? If they ALL had done that, the whole story might have had a DIFFERENT ending!
I will tell you a little secret though. I did some meditation on the subject of the Knights Templar, using the Method of St. Ignatius.( That is the sole thing good that ever came out of jesuitry, IMOHO)
It was by this means that I eventually found out from the Black Virgin Herself, that the KT had in fact sacrificed themselves, because there was something great that they wanted to achieve, and the karma from the sin of the Jerusalem Massacre was standing in the way of that achievement. Thus they had to be content with freely offering themselves and their wealth up in atonement of that sin, and the goal would be then achieved in subsequent lifetimes.
And so it was that the Supreme Grand Master stayed behind, and went down nearly seven years later in the service of the Order, after publicly proclaiming the innocence of the Order before the cathedral of Notre-Dame (interestingly enough, the planet associated with Notre-Dame is MARS) A much more impressive story than that of Jesus, don't you think? Jesus suffered for a mere forty days and nights; Jacques de Molay and Geoffroi de Charney suffered for SEVEN YEARS.
I am in complete agreement with the bestowal of the title that Knight [sic] and Lomas gave Book Two in their series, i.e. "The Second Messiah"
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Post by billmcelligott on Nov 30, 2010 16:36:23 GMT
Just received this morning a Special deal from Lewis on Turning the Templar Key they are selling the hardback at the same price as the softcover. www.lodgeroom.net/sales/catalog/turning-hiram-p-1183.htmlJust finished loading it on. ------------------ It’s time to reveal the amazing secrets behind the knights Templars This months incredible clearance title is the highly regarded follow-up to `Turning The Hiram Key`- `Turning The Templar Key` by Robert Lomas. Hardback 230 x 153 388 pages Returning to the unanswered questions of The Hiram Key, best-selling author Robert Lomas, uses newly available information to uncover the roles of Viking Pirate kings, Pretenders to the Crown of Scotland, Custodians of Holy Relics and Political Opportunists to reveal an unexpected story. His quest takes him back to the beginnings of civilization to reveal a startling legacy of religious symbolism and belief which has its roots in the beginnings of a religion of farming, which he reconstructs using computer simulation to explain the latest archo-genetic findings. On Saturday 13th Oct 2007 it was seven hundred years to the day since the Knights Templar were struck down in a secret dawn raid by the King of France. Their assets were seized, their members were arrested and they were accused of heresy. So began one of the most mysterious and tenacious conspiracy questions of history. Why were the Knight Templar forcibly disbanded? What happened to their legacy? Did they survive disguised as other Orders? Discover the answer to these mysterious questions! uncover the incredible secrets hidden for over eleven thousand years! What the brethren say… `A landmark investigation into the unknown origins of Templar Masonry ` Looked forward to sitting down to a riveting good read and was not disappointed - at first. Just to get us in the mood we begin with a detailed overview of the Templars and their history, which is all good stuff but nothing any Templar fan doesn't already know. Nontheless the links or otherwise to Freemasonry are viewed objectively and give pause for thought. We continue through the escape to Scotland, the Templar fleet, Rosslyn and we have a detailed synopsis on the St Clairs. The research and interpretation of that research is superb and for me it's a page turner. `This work has poked gaping holes in the historical nature of the Craft.` `The Rosslyn aspect and tales of Bannockburn Templars and the whole romantic myth of the wisdom of Solomon on tour with the shroud of Jesus, is lifted into a higher relic.` ` Robert guides us beyond the normal meme, and places our understanding into something new. It is a re- examination of Rosslyn---Celestial and Terrestrial. Our understanding is poked and pushed into a new respect of our universe and our place within it through new questions`. `Like any good Freemason, or Scientist, Robert raises questions that only truth can answer. Whether the personal truths of a Scientist or the spiritual truths of a Freemason.` `I can not give less than 5 stars for this work, because, it breaks new ground. Anyone else who can break new ground...please publish. ` Listern to Robert read from ` Turning The Templar Key` www.turningthetemplarkey.com/media/tttkintro.mp3Short biography of Dr Robert Lomas, the man who inspired The Da Vinci Code's lead character Robert Lomas gained a first class honours degree in electrical engineering before being awarded a PhD for his research into solid state physics and crystalline structures. He later worked on electronic weapon systems and has always had a keen interest in observational astronomy and the history of science. Whilst working at Huddersfield Polytechnic, in 1985, he published his first book. It was a textbook on statistical forecasting, a subject he maintains a professional interest in and still teaches to undergraduates at Bradford University School of Management. In 1996 he teamed up with Chris Knight to write The Hiram Key. The success of this book encouraged Robert to develop his popular writing and he went on to co-author three further books in the Hiram Key series. The Hiram Key series website can be found at www.knight-lomas.com. During this period, of co-authoring, Robert continued to write on his own. He published a well-received biography of the scientist Nikola Tesla, (a subject he regularly lectures about to branches of the Institute of Electrical Engineers and at Science Festivals). Robert is also a popular speaker at astronomy societies where he talks about archeoastronomy, the theory of horizon declinometers and Alexander Thom's work on the megalithic yard (including a popular practical demonstration of how to create one). He also gives talks about the physics of cometary impact and tsunamis (which he researched in depth whilst writing Uriel's Machine). He also wrote a study of the politics of Stuart Freemasonry and its influence on the formation of the Royal Society, with the consequent development of modern experimental science. This also has been well received. Robert is frequently asked to speak in Masonic Lodges on the role of Brother Sir Robert Moray in bringing together scientists from both sides of the Civil War to help rebuild Charles II's navy. His expertise in computing was put to good use in creating a database of old Masonic material, whilst researching The Invisible College. As a result of that work he made the complete text of Preston's Illustrations of Masonry available on the Inernet. Encouraged by the success of this venture he put the case to his University that it should allow him to create an electronic repository of the Masonic material held in the special collections. The Web of Hiram was the result. It is an ongoing project, as with each book he writes, Robert deposits the source material on the website, so that his readers can see the original sources for themselves. Robert has had a long standing interest in the psychological effect of Masonic ritual on its participants and a few years ago joined The Lodge of Living Stones, in Leeds, which continues the work of W. L. Wilmshurst. His study of Wilmshurst's writings, combined with his own scientific studies of the emotional impact of neolithic symbols and his interest in the electrical effects on different states of consciousness encouraged him to questions how Freemasonry worked its ritual magic. The result of these thoughts is Turning the Hiram Key. Robert currently lectures in Information Systems at Bradford University School of Management and is a leading exponent of internet-based distance learning and assessment. He teaches Statistics to undergraduates and is a tutor and facilitator on the MBA in Engineering Management.
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Post by vajranagini on Nov 30, 2010 19:44:50 GMT
I CAN"T WAIT TO READ THIS.
I must say, the theory of Knight and Lomas about the origin of the Shroud of Turin is the MOST CREDIBLE that I have encountered thus far. Absolutely EVERYTHING they said about it 'held water": the fact that linen shrouds would have in fact been found in the Temple, the particular weave of the Shroud being typical of the period (early 14th century), and most particularly, the carbon-dating, which got the ages of ALL the OTHER samples of historical fabric right; are we now expected to believe that the British Museum , (which 'sets the standard" for museum research and carbon-dating technology,) "just happened" to get the age of the fabric in the Shroud "wrong" and ALL the other samples "right" Uh-huh.
The funny thing is, is that if you gaze at the image long enough, it is apparent that the face is indeed that of an older man (Jacques de Molay was 63 at the time) The image also shows a 'fine figure of a man", which would be expected of a warrior monk; no doubt it was part of the regime' followed by the KT, to work out regularly. Also, the upper body development of the figure is consistent with that of a swordsman. Sculptures have been made, of figures based on the imprint on the Shroud, and the body is well-muscled and fit,
The claim that the figure on the Shroud is distorted due to the body having been placed on a soft bed with the head and upper body raised to facilitate breathing (and not laid out flat as a dead body would be) is also valid, and it is true that that position does in fact ease breathing for a sick or wounded person; I know this because I took a first-aid course.
If one also checks the creds of each and every detractor of K and L's theory, they are ALL, without exception, Christians who obviously do NOT want their "little bubble of delusion burst". This is the SAME mentality that would force the 'creationism" theory on everybody, so that would all be expected to teach children that "God created the world in seven days" and everything just "floated down from heaven on a great big hand" like a child playing with a farm set. Who is to say that the story of the Knights Templar wasn't just "one of those things"... but in fact an EXTENSION of the "Jesus" story" ?
It certainly looks like it to ME: the fall of the Temple, accompanied by the martyrdom of two of its leaders (Jesus's brother James the Just" also died a martyr's death; it was in fact HIS death that kicked off the uprising of the Jews in AD 70, (note the date!) and the fall of the Temple!
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Post by rembrandt on Dec 1, 2010 5:41:44 GMT
Is it more likely that there was a special event linked to a dedicated Roman Church order or that the shroud is another fraud from a long list of frauds that were perpetrated in that era. I don't have answers but I am interested in the debate and the evidence. I have little interest in speculation and gradiose claims that cannot be supported with empirical evidence. Personally, I would like to find out that at least some of the stories were true.
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Post by jayman on Dec 1, 2010 13:42:44 GMT
If one also checks the creds of each and every detractor of K and L's theory, they are ALL, without exception, Christians who obviously do NOT want their "little bubble of delusion burst". This is the SAME mentality that would force the 'creationism" theory on everybody, so that would all be expected to teach children that "God created the world in seven days" and everything just "floated down from heaven on a great big hand" like a child playing with a farm set. Who is to say that the story of the Knights Templar wasn't just "one of those things"... but in fact an EXTENSION of the "Jesus" story" ? thank you for your negative stereotype of Christians. Would you care to take a few shots at the Jews and Muslims while you are at it?
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Post by billmcelligott on Dec 1, 2010 18:45:42 GMT
Please keep within due bounds.
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Post by maximus on Dec 5, 2010 2:42:41 GMT
Way to kill a thread, guys.
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Post by vajranagini on Dec 5, 2010 21:59:03 GMT
Oh, easy enough to get back on track. I will remark first however, that anyone with even the most cursory knowledge of the history of Christianity knows how distasteful it is; it can be classed alongside the Holocaust and Stalin's purges without even batting an eye! So if there are 'negative stereotypes in existence, it can truly be said that "they brought it upon themselves".
Just like the Jews did (You don't think the Egyptians, finding the body of their Pharoah murdered by the "Juwes" and left to rot, that they wouldn't have placed a HUGE "king-killer" CURSE on the "Habiru", that has followed them DOWN THE AGES??? History certainly confirms this!) And as for the Muslims, well, Mohammed DID apparently say that "Islam will last only 1500 years", and its TIME IS COMING UP.
But , back to the Knights Templar. The KT were accused of 'spitting on the cross". Since there is evidence that the KT rapidly joined forces with the Saracen (there was a Syrian Grand Master elected within 7 years of its formation) there can be no question that they allied themselves with Sufi teachings very rapidly.
Sufi originated not in the East, but in Moorish-ruled SPAIN, and the KT also had outposts THERE, as well; Tomar, f'r instance. It would not surprise me in the least if these teachings consisted of "going beyond the cross", because the cross represents mundane and physical existence (as well as a Roman method of ignominous death), and thus "disdaining the cross" is a symbolic way of "going beyond it."
The greater teaching has always been that we ourselves are divine, and so the ritual death must be undergone, JUST LIKE IN FREEMASONRY! Thus everyone undergoing this form of teaching must in and of themselves assume the identity of the "slain and risen God": they must undergo death, resurrection, and apotheosis.
Since the Church , wishing to HOLD ON TO its monopoly , disavows any such teachings, calling them "heresy!", and, of course, is/was prepared to enforce that judgement with blood and fire, it is no wonder that when word of these sort of teachings among the KT got out, that Philip le Bel immediately seized on it as a means to bring about the Knight Templar's DOWNFALL.
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