|
Post by vajranagini on Apr 10, 2011 23:16:10 GMT
Well, if you can persuade MadDervish to return then we can have a SUFI thread for you to participate in!
|
|
|
Post by vajranagini on Apr 10, 2011 23:31:25 GMT
In any case, the GOOD thing about NOT being a Freemason is that we non-Freemasons are free to speculate on we know about Freemasonry, since we have never taken any oaths not to! Technically, a Freemason should NOT be talking openly about things like Masonic tokens and such where the 'cowans' can 'eavesdrop"!
I will say that if you look at the Holy royal Arch tracing board you will see there depicted the pick, shovel and the "crow". Lomas and Knight [sic] maintained that the Holy Royal Arch Degree was a commemoration of the events of 1118, when those original nine Knights of the Temple took a vow to return to the Holy Land and retrieve whatever it was their ancestors had left behind in the Temple vaults a thousand years previously. I agree the Rite described by Knight and Lomas does in fact appear to do just that.
I recall an essay I wrote some time ago in "templarhistory dot com" (it's still there, I believe), that proposed that the treasure uncovered by the candidate had the image of the Tree of Life engraved on it. Such an image would be very powerful indeed, having been charged up by generations of trained minds using it as a focus for meditation...
|
|
|
Post by maat on Apr 11, 2011 0:16:05 GMT
Whatever happened to poor Paul who started this thread? He only made the one post.
Frightened off. I am now starting to wonder just what some (particularly non mason members) hope to achieve here, and why.
Knowledge = is not Understanding nor Wisdom.
Will = Willingness to assist, Willingness to learn, Willingness to lift one's Brother up, willingness to sacrifice one's personal desires for the good of the all.
Love = is being Willing.
|
|
|
Post by vajranagini on Apr 11, 2011 1:38:00 GMT
Why target the non-Masons? I certainly hope you aren't referring to me; I simply expressed my opinion that the "coin" was in fact a Masonic token connected with the HRA and everything went west from there. If Masons don;'t want non-Masons commenting about things Masonic, then maybe they ought to have their own, 'closed" forum. When a subject is open to all, then all have an equal right to comment.
|
|
|
Post by maat on Apr 11, 2011 2:51:59 GMT
Why target the non-Masons? . Because if they are not masons they don't necessarily know what they are talking about but do seem to express 'opinions' rather strongly nonetheless. Some members have left the forum, which is a bit of a shame.
|
|
|
Post by sammy on Apr 11, 2011 14:43:21 GMT
Your right Anubis, maat is correct. In spite of my best efforts this thread had changed subject two pages ago. My apologies to paul for the diversion of subject.
I think you've sufficiently cornered the outsiders, are you all done now? When someones personal knowledge no longer bears weight to your ears because of thier status, you might wanna reconsider your counterweight.
|
|
|
Post by sammy on Apr 12, 2011 0:03:50 GMT
I did notice and appreciate that.
|
|
|
Post by vajranagini on Apr 13, 2011 3:12:00 GMT
Sammy, i am interested to hear you talk about sewing guilds; it was that, in fact that drew me back to the forum; I was intending to ask is anyone had ever heard tell of any tradition of sewing or weaving guilds"? At one time a woman's stitchery and weaving skills could earn her a steady living and thus no need, hence the designation "spinster" as a term for a woman who never married. Thread and yarn were always in demand and could be worked on at home. Thus there must have been a whole subculture of seamstresses; it is not unreasonable that they also had fraternities (I use the word deliberately) amongst themselves. Many Sufis were employed in the weaving, dyeing, and sewing trades so it is not unreasonable that they also used the opportunity to spread their particular tradtions...
|
|
|
Post by sammy on Apr 13, 2011 13:08:09 GMT
There isnt a whole lot I know more then I have written already. You are correct though the sewing circles could get massive "guilds" and also for masonic and non-masonic events. Im not sure how many lodges had circles, but I would guess all of them had something along that line for the uniforms/aprons.
There is a active and fairly new guild I found on the net called "the American Sewing Guild" established 1970. There was also some involvement with masonic lodges recently, so it does still seem to be used. Asside from that I could only find letters of thanks or event announcements only mentioning the sewing circles, if they did collaberate it wasnt well recorded. Dont forget one was "womans work" as masonry was "mans work".
Growing up my mom made all of our clothes. We'd go down to the Ben Franklin and pick out the patterns we wanted, then my mom would sew em up. My best friends mom is still like a old school sewer "new machines ofcourse" but she sews like a mad woman for churches and families etc... There isnt as much pay off anymore for indipendant work though.
There is a massive amount of modern sewing and quilting guilds, circles, and gatherings which can be found on the web. I think it would be hard to die in America, with our preservation attempts and societies like omish. It still flourishes.
|
|
|
Post by sammy on Apr 13, 2011 14:31:42 GMT
I asked my mom if she had been part of any circles in our hometown, she hadnt but said they were around. I also remember going to the county fair and seeing the quilting guilds display (most top shelf quilts are over $1000 US) and im perty sure thats a old estimate. There is alot of choices for quilting fabrics everywhere, but most corperations have the rights to the garnment fabrics. Some are available but mostly low qualities, unless you can provide a high enough demand.
There is even less I know about the spinners. I do know that there is a quite old philosophy about the spinning wheel and the fabric of time. Ill see if I can get a more clear description of this.
|
|
|
Post by sammy on Apr 13, 2011 14:40:00 GMT
The fabric of time thing is probably an extention of this. S. Narayanswamy discusses the book, The Gandhian Philosophy Of Spinning-Wheel,
by Mohit Chakrabarti, Concept Publishing Company, New Delhi, 2000.
The book “The Gandhian Philosophy Of Spinning-Wheel” is indeed a golden book published on the eve of the Golden Jubilee of Indian Republic in the new millennium. Professor Mohit Chakrabarti has made a commendable effort to trace out the philosophical background of the spinning-wheel and to highlight the various aspects of the spinning wheel from the Gandhian angle. The book is strengthened by seven chapters running into about 105 pages, making a thin bound small volume dedicated two different Gandhian educational thinkers, Dr. Mahendra Kumar, Editor of Gandhi Marg, and Professor Dilip Kumar Sinah, Vice-Chancellor of Visva Bharati University, Shantiniketan, created by Rabindranath Tagore. It is obvious that the author of the book has not only sought blessings but has also borrowed their ideas to design this book. It is obviously based on the library research with the original writings of Mahatma Gandhi and on the secondary sources. Besides, a creative thinking of the author is also reflected through the figures and diagrams, highlighting the paramount importance of the spinning-wheel which serves as focal point of the child’s growth and development of personality. To begin with, the author makes an attempt to spell out the aims and objectives of the spinning-wheel in the first chapters. As an inward spirit, the spinning-wheel, as Mahatma Gandhi introspects, epitomizes man as a divine being. As an outward spirit, it emphasizes self-help, self-service, self-contentment, and austerity. The dream of the spinning-wheel, as he visualizes, is the dream of a better emancipation of man as an individual and social being. In the second chapter, Gandhian perspectives of education and the spinning-wheel are analyzed. The analysis reveals that the educational system can be shaped or refined through a craft and that the spinning-wheel can play a very significant role so as to make education self-reliant and self-supporting. The third chapter, titled “Soceity and the spinning-wheel”, clearly indicates that the spinning-wheel binds the heart of everyone in society with the common cord of social oneness. The seeds of national and social cohesion can be sown through the music of the spinning-wheel. However, the author emphatically argues that true Swaraj and prosperity of society can be visualized and realized only through the spinning-wheel being the centre of all handicraft. The concept of nonviolence and the spinning-wheel is discussed in chapter four. The author points out that the concept of sacrifice well nurtured in Gandhi’s concept of nonviolence and the spinning-wheel is also at the root of his concept of the spinning-wheel. When Gandhi associates nonviolence with the spinning-wheel, he actually makes a unison of worship with work and he considers the spinning-wheel the best symbol of nonviolence. An eleven-page scholarly analysis of the book under chapter five highlights the religious dimensions of the spinning-wheel instills the true concept of religion by means of the spinning-wheel which Gandhi calls “Sarvadharma Samabhava”. This chapter clearly indicates that Gandhi is always in favour of a new religion that teaches how to safeguard and enrich self-respect and self-development of each individual in order to safeguard and enrich national honour and national development. The sixth chapter deals with the humanistic spirit of the spinning-wheel. At the outset, the author records that the spinning-wheel is the true symbol of humanism and it is an effective vehicle to serve as a spurt both inwardly and outwardly, directly and indirectly. Plain living or living nobly as true humanism always aims at is the sine qua non of the spinning wheel. Further, this chapter obviously reveals the four significant reasons why Gandhi advocates the humanistic spirit of the spinning-wheel. In the last chapter, the extraordinary power of the wheel is indicated under the caption “postscript”. It is soul-stirring to record the fact that Mahatma Gandhi expressed his desire also ardently that he craved to die with his hand at the spinning-wheel. Further, he wanted to change the very attitude of man towards man and society and vice versa by introducing the spinning-wheel. There is no doubt that this book will change the minds of the younger generations and the attitude of the people in the new millennium and the centuries to come. On the whole, Mohit Chakrabarti’s efforts deserve full praise, especially for his deft handling of both primary and secondary sources. The book is a scholarly piece of work, which deserves careful reading by social scientists, planners, and administrators, especially at a time when the love for auto machines and electronic goods is increasing and new perspectives as well as alternatives are being heralded. The book is stimulating and has a heuristic value for further research the area. It will interest all those working in the area of Gandhian studies, government, voluntary sector, and industrial units occupied by modern machinery with out a philosophy.
Source: Gandhi Marg-Quarterly Journal of the Gandhi Peace Foundation, Volume 22, Number 3, Oct-Dec 2000.
|
|
|
Post by sammy on Apr 13, 2011 14:58:29 GMT
|
|
|
Post by sid on Apr 13, 2011 20:24:18 GMT
|
|
ruffashlar
Member
Lodge Milncroft No. 1515 (GLoS), Govanhill Royal Arch Chapter 523 (S.G.R.A.C.S.)
Posts: 2,184
|
Post by ruffashlar on Apr 14, 2011 16:52:03 GMT
My goodness! What a kerfuffle! vaj wrote Sammy, i am interested to hear you talk about sewing guildsI believe you're both headed in the right general direction. Sadly, I don't think the token is anything particularly to do with women's sewing guilds; or else would they have why shoehorned in an (albeit spurious) Masonic connection? What I think this might be is a badge belonging to a friendly society or mutual organisation, like the Order of Free Gardeners, which has been given a Masonic flavouring, or which simply used blank Masonic tokens restamped with their own insignia. You will observe that the device inside the central disc of the Keystone is indented; whereas the Keystone itself and the Tools to the left and (if I am making it out correctly) Honeyjar to the right are embossed. I should like to add, for the information of all, (and with as much politeness and good humour as certain persons on this forum ought to have displayed to those outside the Craft, or their own portion of it) that the Mark and Royal Arch were not originally separate from either the Blue Lodge or each other. The Mark itself was once part of the Fellowcraft ritual; and even today, in my own Jurisdiction, the Mark and the Arch are administered by both the Blues and the Reds.
|
|
|
Post by foibis on Apr 14, 2011 23:50:41 GMT
Why target the non-Masons? . Because if they are not masons they don't necessarily know what they are talking about but do seem to express 'opinions' rather strongly nonetheless. Some members have left the forum, which is a bit of a shame. A tad arrogant. Simply being a member makes one an expert? One quick read through these board is more than enough to ruin your argument.
|
|
|
Post by sammy on Apr 15, 2011 0:02:45 GMT
My goodness! What a kerfuffle! vaj wrote Sammy, i am interested to hear you talk about sewing guildsI believe you're both headed in the right general direction. Sadly, I don't think the token is anything particularly to do with women's sewing guilds; or else would they have why shoehorned in an (albeit spurious) Masonic connection? What I think this might be is a badge belonging to a friendly society or mutual organisation, like the Order of Free Gardeners, which has been given a Masonic flavouring, or which simply used blank Masonic tokens restamped with their own insignia. You will observe that the device inside the central disc of the Keystone is indented; whereas the Keystone itself and the Tools to the left and (if I am making it out correctly) Honeyjar to the right are embossed. Honey is a good a guess as any HAHA. Thier just blobs of stuff above the urn/jar. I am still curious as to whats on the other side though.
|
|
|
Post by windtimber on Apr 16, 2011 0:58:00 GMT
OK, this has been real amusing to watch, but you're all missing the boat. Go back and read the original post and my response about 75% of the way down page 1.
This a a chapter penny from a US Royal Arch chapter. I presume the chapter in Mankato, MN, as referenced by the original poster. Anybody who's gone through the US version of the Royal Arch [And maybe someplace else...I only know the US ritual.] will know how chapter pennies turn up in the Mark Master degree. They'll also have a pretty good idea about the scissors, etc. in the center.
No, those particular items are not of exact Masonic significance. They are of significance to an individual Freemason - the original owner of the coin.
The tools and the pot and "blobs" do have specific meanings in US York Rite work. You want to know exactly what it all means?
Join a lodge, get raised a Master Mason, petition for membership in a Royal Arch Chapter [and a Council of Cryptic Masons and a Commandery of Knights Templar to fill out your education], and you'll find out.
In the meantime, I'll enjoy continuing to read your speculations.
|
|
|
Post by vajranagini on Apr 16, 2011 18:19:39 GMT
OK, this has been real amusing to watch, but you're all missing the boat. Go back and read the original post and my response about 75% of the way down page 1. This a a chapter penny from a US Royal Arch chapter. I presume the chapter in Mankato, MN, as referenced by the original poster. Anybody who's gone through the US version of the Royal Arch [And maybe someplace else...I only know the US ritual.] will know how chapter pennies turn up in the Mark Master degree. They'll also have a pretty good idea about the scissors, etc. in the center. So, what you are saying is that I, a presumably know-nothing non-Mason, was in fact CORRECT: that this object is in fact a TOKEN (I don't think it is actually "legal tender" i.e "money", so I wouldn't use the world "penny" to describe it, though Masons may well do so amongst themselves) from the HOLY ROYAL ARCH degree. Funny, that. No, those particular items are not of exact Masonic significance. They are of significance to an individual Freemason - the original owner of the coin. The tools and the pot and "blobs" do have specific meanings in US York Rite work. You want to know exactly what it all means? Join a lodge, get raised a Master Mason, petition for membership in a Royal Arch Chapter [and a Council of Cryptic Masons and a Commandery of Knights Templar to fill out your education], and you'll find out. In the meantime, I'll enjoy continuing to read your speculations. My partner's token looks different from this but the basic design is much the same; the symbols are different but most are just as obscure (presumably HRA Lodges each have their own "token designs" peculiar to each Lodge). I still say that those are NOT 'scissors; if you look closely you will see that it is a crossed pick, shovel, and a "crow"(crowbar) all together, representing the tools employed in the particular Rite of the HRA, just as the hammer, square and compass, are the tools peculiar to Blue Rite Freemasonry
|
|
|
Post by windtimber on Apr 16, 2011 21:40:32 GMT
My partner's token looks different from this but the basic design is much the same; the symbols are different but most are just as obscure (presumably HRA Lodges each have their own "token designs" peculiar to each Lodge). I still say that those are NOT 'scissors; if you look closely you will see that it is a crossed pick, shovel, and a "crow"(crowbar) all together, representing the tools employed in the particular Rite of the HRA, just as the hammer, square and compass, are the tools peculiar to Blue Rite Freemasonry Look at the larger image. Note the items in the center of the coin. Scissors, tape measure, and square. You're warm on the items to the left and right. Not even close on the items in the center. And by the way, I'm not intending any insults to you or anyone by my comments. I applaud your research efforts and interest in the craft. Just enjoying the flow of the conversation.
|
|
|
Post by vajranagini on Apr 16, 2011 23:35:43 GMT
Actually I am talking about the items to the left of the central keystone, the pick crossed by a shovel and a "crow". The other, to the right, looks like an urn of some sort; the smaller details hovering above it are not clear.
You are right, the central image includes scissors, or SHEARS, more accurately ("scissors" have two equal-sized finger-holes, "shears' have one large and one small). The three items appear to be shears, square and a tape measure. I am wondering if this has something to do with a sail-making guild or something...I don't believe a 'square' would be a part of a tailor's collection of tools (despite the fact that fabric must be "on grain" before it is cut, or else the finished garment will 'torque' around the body) but it might be for a maker of sails, since they worked with very large pieces of cloth...
But, I am quite satisfied that I, a non-Mason, correctly identified the "penny" itself as being associated with HRA Freemasonry; the imagery on these items likely varies, as I said, from Lodge to Lodge, and so serves as an "identification" token.
|
|