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Post by beersheva on Dec 6, 2011 2:22:19 GMT
Just about everyone who knows much about the OTO and ALEISTER CROWLEY knows that he, CROWLEY, took the name of BAPHOMET. Neither the OTO nor CROWLEY belong to the legitimate LODGES of MASONS. BAHOMET, according to CROWLEY, was derived from BAPHO METIS, which he translated as the BAPTISM of WISDOM, among other interpretations. ELIPHAS LEVI (ALPHONSE LOUIS CONSTANT) had an image that he had drawn and included in one or more of his books on the occult, which looked like an image used in SATANISM or WITCHCRAFT, BUT, which LEVI said "was the image of supreme equilibrium" combining above and below, divine and infernal, male and female, active and passive in ONE IMAGE. The compilitaions of writings that ALBERT PIKE put together entitled MORALS and DOGMA actually exerpted writings of ELIPHAS LEVI's TRANSCENDENTAL MAGIC for the whole of the 32nd DEGREE of the SCOTTISH RITE. LEVI has been listed in a very prestigious ALCHEMIC/ROSICRUCIAN book as the 52 or 53 EMPERATOR of the ROSE CROIX. He directly influenced the development of the HERMETIC ORDER OF THE GD, whose male members were FREEMASONS. The accusation that the TEMPLARS worshipped "THE IMAGE OF BAPHOMET" is not necessarily something that was evil, the image could have been GNOSTIC in origin, a CYPHER of something they wanted to conceal, etc.
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Post by middlepillar on Dec 6, 2011 22:29:08 GMT
This morning I was going through some materials and discovered this interesting passage, taken from The Entered Apprentices Handbook, by W.Bro. J.S.M. WARD. My reason for posting is not to enflame, but rather, to provide some further Light on this ancient symbol as well as to suggest that if there are those who choose to see evil, then so much the worse for them. Keep in mind that quite often, people choose to believe of their own free will all sorts of preposterous imaginings. I say this knowing that this is more or less of an elitist POV. If we continue to allow the swastika, the Baphomet, the All-Seeing eye, and other symbols to remain forever distorted and pervert, and cower in fear and shame from the "public", always apologizing, then those responsible for perverting their meaning will have won. It is high time that the bright Light of Truth shine on this evil so that it may be exposed for what it is: ignorance. My Brother GR what a great post! You are spot on in every way! Freemasonry should never hide or be afraid of ignorance.
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Post by billmcelligott on Dec 6, 2011 23:50:33 GMT
Ignorance like beauty is in the eye of the beholder. No one has any given right to call another ignorant.
Just because some do not agree with your viewpoint does not make them so.
Freemasonry is we are instructed "a peculiar system of morality, veiled in allegory and illustrated by symbols".
Therefore the symbols are for what purpose ? to instruct those only who have one view or to illustrate what Freemasonry stands for.
Clearly many Grand Lodges have dropped the use of a number of words and symbols because they believe those words and symbols no longer have the correct message.
I am always amazed that it seems to be the same Freemasons that constantly want change also want to hold onto long forgotten symbols and words.
I agree that the original use of a symbol should not be denied, but as with the Swastika in the 1930's the Operative Masons , Paviors etc. dropped that symbol because of the Nazi adoption of it. Why would anyone want to keep that symbol as a current illustration of what Freemasonry stands for.
If anyone can convince me that the use of such symbolism improves the morality of the membership of freemasonry then great, lets use them. They have a place in history and some of that history was connected with Freemasonry.
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Post by middlepillar on Dec 7, 2011 0:53:18 GMT
Ignorance like beauty is in the eye of the beholder. No one has any given right to call another ignorant. No one has called any specific person ignorant,
Just because some do not agree with your viewpoint does not make them so.
It is not about the viewpoint it is about people who do not bother to want to learn
Freemasonry is we are instructed "a peculiar system of morality, veiled in allegory and illustrated by symbols".
Therefore the symbols are for what purpose ? to instruct those only who have one view or to illustrate what Freemasonry stands for.
Symbols are to be interpreted some are more easily interpreted than others, however there can be many interpretations, none neccessarily wrong
Clearly many Grand Lodges have dropped the use of a number of words and symbols because they believe those words and symbols no longer have the correct message.
There are many reasons for these things being dropped or changed not only because of 'not having the right message'
I am always amazed that it seems to be the same Freemasons that constantly want change also want to hold onto long forgotten symbols and words.
The Fylfot Cross is not long forgotten nor are many other symbols, it is simply that in your Freemasonry (as in the Orders you belong to) you have not come across them, so in fact you have a memory or understanding of them that is relevant to you, all I am saying is there are other meanins particularly with the swastika and it is not just a symbol of evil, to those in one other Order it means something completely different
I agree that the original use of a symbol should not be denied, but as with the Swastika in the 1930's the Operative Masons , Paviors etc. dropped that symbol because of the Nazi adoption of it. Why would anyone want to keep that symbol as a current illustration of what Freemasonry stands for.
If anyone can convince me that the use of such symbolism improves the morality of the membership of freemasonry then great, lets use them. They have a place in history and some of that history was connected with Freemasonry.
The Swastika or Fylfot Cross is used in the 3rd Grade of The SRIA, it is explained in full what it means to a Rosicrucian Freemason, there are over 10,000 Freemasons that understand that the Fylfot or Swastika Cross is a relevant symbol currently used in a recognised Order which only receives Master Masons, it represents many things to a Rosicrucian Freemason. As I say Freemasons should never be afraid of ignorance, they should try to educate, however if people do not want to be educated, then the fall back is dont be afraid of ignorance.
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Post by billmcelligott on Dec 7, 2011 4:10:40 GMT
No one has called any specific person ignorant, Never said they did but If no one is called ignorant then to whom do we speak ? somebody somewhere is being called ignorant. There are a number of posts here that have made the same or similar comment. Then someone has to determine who is trying hard enough ? and yes it is - your view is some do not want to learn. It could be they just do not agree. Sure , OK. Whatever the reason, as with 'throat cut across' in the UK ritual it now carries a caveat of 'at one time included' which keeps within the tradition but distances the statement from actual physical harm. It is seen as an improvement that stops any offence being created. Never said any of that, just explained that it was dropped , simple fact, it was dropped. I have no wish to impose my views on anyone. I do read and can realize others have differing views, I thought I had accepted that. If not I will say now, please do with these symbols as you see fit. I just dont wish them to be attached to where they are not accepted. From your own figures then approx 2.8% of the UK Freemasons accept the swastika as a Masonic symbol. Which I suppose leaves us 97.2% as ignorant. Rosicrucian have every right to use whatever symbolism they feel works for them. I have no right to pass comment. However it is not accurate to say it is accepted by Freemasons or Freemasonry. It was at one time but is no longer. As for the Baphomet symbol there has never been an acceptance of that by Freemasonry. As illustrated by the quote from JSM Ward {born 22 December 1885}. Most of his Masonic handbooks were written in the 1920's. {He died 1949}, the Nazi party was not around when he quite rightly described the swastika and its symbolism in the EA Handbook. Would he have given the same explanation in the 1950's, we will never know. Many, many things were acceptable in the 1920's that are not acceptable now.
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Post by billmcelligott on Dec 7, 2011 8:44:25 GMT
That is my point. The minute anyone says, 'those ignorant people' ! they must be referring to someone, however because they do not wish to upset anyone the term is used as a foil rather than an objective observation. 'Only the ignorant would not see the truth of what I am saying'. Words are powerful tools and should be used as such, carefully. And I would agree, but there is a difference in use. what is being said is a question ' if you would be ignorant ' - if you do not understand these self evident truths. Then yes, that in my Masonic brain, is ignorance, but don't tell them I said so. There you got me being judgmental. In my opinion 'caring', it is that simple. Anyone that has had a bereavement, illness or depression or just bad luck. They just want to know that someone, anyone cares. It is not about money it is about getting a small card saying 'I am sorry to hear your in trouble'. There you go changing what I said, no I did not dismiss anything, my Brothers in the 1930's dismissed the Swastika not me. I am just reminding those who wish to listen things have changed, there were reasons for those changes. Totally agree. It is quite possible to make arguments without calling ignorance, In my opinion. If your argument is just it should stand alone. The penalties are like the swastika symbolic, yes! Answer me this then why should I take the swastika as a more powerful symbol than 'throat cut across'Like it or not evil is there, we will have to face it as and when. I have no fear 'because in this mortal frame there is implanted a faith that will enable us to trample the king of terrors beneath our feet' no matter what symbols they choose to use. in truth, the finding of that which was lost is not important. The only importance is that you look you search you strive. It is not the destination it is the journey where you learn. It is not I that is trying to keep symbols out, rather than some wish to place symbols where they are not now. If they succeed then I will as always accept the decision of the majority. In my opinion Freemasonry has one certain task, - to make you a better person - if it does not do that, then what use is it other than being a play thing for mind games. Yet I suppose even that has some benefit, but it would be hollow, no place for me I fear. As you ask there has to be a correct message.
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Post by middlepillar on Dec 7, 2011 9:14:33 GMT
Bill wrote;
From your own figures then approx 2.8% of the UK Freemasons accept the swastika as a Masonic symbol. Which I suppose leaves us 97.2% as ignorant.
Rosicrucian have every right to use whatever symbolism they feel works for them. I have no right to pass comment. However it is not accurate to say it is accepted by Freemasons or Freemasonry. It was at one time but is no longer. As for the Baphomet symbol there has never been an acceptance of that by Freemasonry.
As illustrated by the quote from JSM Ward {born 22 December 1885}. Most of his Masonic handbooks were written in the 1920's. {He died 1949}, the Nazi party was not around when he quite rightly described the swastika and its symbolism in the EA Handbook.
Would he have given the same explanation in the 1950's, we will never know.
Many, many things were acceptable in the 1920's that are not acceptable now.
The Fylfot Cross or Swastika was written in to SRIA Rituals before the 1900's, however its symbiolism has been understood by ancient societies many years before, J S Ward understood its symbolism and used it. Hitler came along and liked the design and used it as an emblem for The Nazi Party. The Nazi Party has long gone, The Cross remains, do you not think it is slightly wrong not to want to understand its true meaning? Do you think it is right that most people will only ever know its evil history and not its original purpose? If you do then I am sorry a lack of wanting to understand and learn sometrhing that is correct is in my mind ignorance, it is as ignorant as those members of BNP that believe they are correct to practice hatred instead of tolerance and peace.
There you go changing what I said, no I did not dismiss anything, my Brothers in the 1930's dismissed the Swastika not me.
I do not understand why you insist they dismissed this symbol, between 1930 and 1960 it would of been insensitive to use this symbol bercause of how closely associated with the Nazi Party it was, however at some time surely it is correct to educate people iunto the true meanings of this cross? To not want to understand it true symbolism is like the old saying; 'There is none so blind as those that wont see'! To shut your eyes and ears to truths because some one in the past abused his right to use any particular symbol is surely wrong? I cannot believe anyone would wish to remain uneducated.
The penalties are like the swastika symbolic, yes! Answer me this then why should I take the swastika as a more powerful symbol than 'throat cut across'
No one is asking you to! All that I have tried to show is that some, (Hence the term esoteric or hermetic) understand the true symbolism of The Swastika, once you know and understand its true symbolism you are able to look at it and not see the Nazi Flag. It is your absolute right to not take this on board. I find it very strange that you are so anti the right of everyone to be able to understand something without trying to become so focused on trying to show it as a Nazi symbol and nothing else!
THe last thing I would like to say or make an observation about is this. You write that we misrepresent what you write which may or may not be true, but who's fault is that, yet you are also guilty of the same thing which again may say more about me than you! It is the unfortunate thing about being on a Forum.
There is nothing more easy than to come to the gate of truth; there is nothing more difficult than to enter it. This applies to most of the wise of this world.
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Post by billmcelligott on Dec 7, 2011 14:32:05 GMT
The Fylfot Cross or Swastika was written in to SRIA Rituals before the 1900's, however its symbiolism has been understood by ancient societies many years before, J S Ward understood its symbolism and used it. Hitler came along and liked the design and used it as an emblem for The Nazi Party. The Nazi Party has long gone, The Cross remains, do you not think it is slightly wrong not to want to understand its true meaning? Do you think it is right that most people will only ever know its evil history and not its original purpose? If you do then I am sorry a lack of wanting to understand and learn sometrhing that is correct is in my mind ignorance, it is as ignorant as those members of BNP that believe they are correct to practice hatred instead of tolerance and peace. It is said that as soon as someone is loosing an argument on the internet the Hitler word is used, BNP is close enough I suppose. I was fully conversant of the origins of the Flyfot , somewhat condescending to assume that I have no knowledge and that if my view is different it must therefore come from ignorance of the subject. It has Anglo Saxon and Germanic roots and can be interpreted as a many footed or four footed creature. There maybe you have learned something today. It is prevelent in English Heraldry and can be found for example in Argent, a chevron between three fylfots gules--Leonard CHAMBERLAYNE, Yorkshire. Amazing what an ignorant can come up with. Please show me where I have said any of this. You are starting from a pre conceived point and making the argument fit. I do not mind if the symbol is used, I just say that it is not a Masonic symbol now, I understand you wish to make it so but I am not the person you have to convince. Get my Grand Lodge to accept it then I have no problem at all. The only mention of the Nazi party I have used is in connection to the point raised about JM Ward, that is all I am not fixated on it as you are trying to suggest. The conversation over the last 2 pages here is about calling people ignorant. It is an interesting subject but Brother you are concerned far more on my not agreeing than the point of the matter in hand. I have no idea how to reply to this. Other than , read what I write, Itry to be clear and precise. There is nothing more easy than to come to the gate of truth; there is nothing more difficult than to enter it. This applies to most of the wise of this world. It is inflamatory I shall stop writing. I will say no more. I will leave the forum to those who feel only they know all that is the truth. I will remain ignorant. There is nothing more cowardly than not saying what you believe is the truth. This of course may well be unwise. [Bill McElligott 2011]
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cwhite
Member
Too much attention to subtleties makes you oblivious to the obvious.
Posts: 55
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Post by cwhite on Dec 7, 2011 20:44:50 GMT
The accusation that the TEMPLARS worshipped "THE IMAGE OF BAPHOMET" is not necessarily something that was evil, the image could have been GNOSTIC in origin, a CYPHER of something they wanted to conceal, etc. I think I understand the purpose of the original Templars Baphomet now....
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Post by middlepillar on Dec 7, 2011 22:57:53 GMT
This is my first reference to The Fylfot Cross in this thread; The Swastika is also called The Fylfot Cross and is an emblem of extreme antiquity, it is most unfortunate that the Nazis adopted it for thier use, however! It has been found in Countries as far apart as India and Scandinavia. It is The Cross of The Jains of India and most probably easier remembered as The Hammer of Thor in Scandinavian Myths. Within The SRIA it is considered one of The Crosses of The Four Elements. It invokes absolutely no evil symbolism within The Colleges where The SRIA practice thier rituals. After this post within one or two you placed a huge picture of the Nazi Flag! ? I have never said you didnt know the origins, however having disclosed that you do, I do not understand how a man who defends Freemasonry from the attacks of the insidious as well as you do, cannot understand how important it is to educate people that The Swastika is not an evil symbol, it was misused in a point of history it was abused. This does not make it evil. Surely in a postion that you are in knowing its history is nothing sinister, you would feel compelled to put people right? However just like you, I have really had enough of trying to put across my view in a way that would please you, so I to will bow out of this discussion. The Fylfot Cross or Swastika was written in to SRIA Rituals before the 1900's, however its symbiolism has been understood by ancient societies many years before, J S Ward understood its symbolism and used it. Hitler came along and liked the design and used it as an emblem for The Nazi Party. The Nazi Party has long gone, The Cross remains, do you not think it is slightly wrong not to want to understand its true meaning? Do you think it is right that most people will only ever know its evil history and not its original purpose? If you do then I am sorry a lack of wanting to understand and learn sometrhing that is correct is in my mind ignorance, it is as ignorant as those members of BNP that believe they are correct to practice hatred instead of tolerance and peace. It is said that as soon as someone is loosing an argument on the internet the Hitler word is used, BNP is close enough I suppose. I was fully conversant of the origins of the Flyfot , somewhat condescending to assume that I have no knowledge and that if my view is different it must therefore come from ignorance of the subject. It has Anglo Saxon and Germanic roots and can be interpreted as a many footed or four footed creature. There maybe you have learned something today. It is prevelent in English Heraldry and can be found for example in Argent, a chevron between three fylfots gules--Leonard CHAMBERLAYNE, Yorkshire. Amazing what an ignorant can come up with. Please show me where I have said any of this. You are starting from a pre conceived point and making the argument fit. I do not mind if the symbol is used, I just say that it is not a Masonic symbol now, I understand you wish to make it so but I am not the person you have to convince. Get my Grand Lodge to accept it then I have no problem at all. The only mention of the Nazi party I have used is in connection to the point raised about JM Ward, that is all I am not fixated on it as you are trying to suggest. The conversation over the last 2 pages here is about calling people ignorant. It is an interesting subject but Brother you are concerned far more on my not agreeing than the point of the matter in hand. I have no idea how to reply to this. Other than , read what I write, Itry to be clear and precise. There is nothing more easy than to come to the gate of truth; there is nothing more difficult than to enter it. This applies to most of the wise of this world. It is inflamatory I shall stop writing. I will say no more. I will leave the forum to those who feel only they know all that is the truth. I will remain ignorant. There is nothing more cowardly than not saying what you believe is the truth. This of course may well be unwise. [Bill McElligott 2011]
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Post by fractal3rd on Dec 8, 2011 6:46:49 GMT
Interesting conversations to read through. Always good to learn new things - always better to discern tho. Still no-one has proved beyond a shadow of doubt that Baphomet was part of ancient freemasonry or forms part of rituals in any of the 33 degrees - commentary has been written which uses Baphomet as symbols, again this is modern mans interpretation of the rituals, which no doubt had very distinct meaning for our ancient brothers – and was enough to elevate them to the higher planes without having to use any other analogies – are we not complicating an otherwise very simple science and truth? Will the divine not accept ones oaths sworn, based on the original given rites and rituals? Sometimes; as the VSL says; the Grand Architect uses the foolish things to confound the wise. The Grand Architect is not so high and mighty that he requires us to manufacture symbols and mediate upon these to reach his presence – In the beginning was the Word the Word was with God and the Word was God – find the Word. Since Baphomet was only a recent creation and did not exist earlier than the templar’s or Codex Gigas or Crowley… then it is not the ‘Word’ and there are other ways to portray all the aspects written above (wisdom, the hermaphrodite – etc.) without Baphomet. I think we must just get back to being simple and pure of heart and the rest will follow – if one feels the need to discuss Baphomet and study it so mote it be, but not in open lodge as I do not think it was part of craft masonry or any other masonry. Like mentioned before I think it’s a great topic over a beer or at tea after lodge. But this is just my opinion.
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Post by billmcelligott on Dec 8, 2011 13:47:55 GMT
Well I was not going to post anymore but I cant let that pass MP You refer to the graphic which was used to illustrate this sentence. There is a much stronger case for linking the swastika to Freemasonry from the simple construct of it as 4 x Squares. So even when I agree somehow I am wrong
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Post by fractal3rd on Dec 9, 2011 7:36:29 GMT
Please enlighten me on how I am fishing for ritual details? the only reason I posted this topic was to understand it Baphomet was part of masonic belief, since I was assured earlier on in the thread by Bill that it was not found in any masonic ritual I choose to mention. If I wanted to find out about any ritual I am sure I could find it on the net anyway I would not ask here.
By Ancient I mean the earliest Fremasonry practised - which could not contain Baphomet or referneces to it since like I said this is a relativley recent word and concept like. I am unsure where you comment on specious claims comes from and quite frankly I feel insulted by it - You seem to read into peoples words things are just not there.
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Post by sid on Dec 9, 2011 16:41:07 GMT
Baphomet? Probably the biggest scam & self deseption of all time.
A dolfin told me.
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Post by vajranagini on Dec 10, 2011 1:19:55 GMT
The word sva-stika is itself SANSKRIT, and means something like "auspicious"; it can be seen on the hand of Ganesha the elephant-headed Deity (with little dots between the arms), and on the chest of statues of the Buddha, where it is known as the "Heart of the Buddha". It is absolutely crucial to note the position of the sva-stika, which is level, (at rest) and not poised on one point (active) like the Nazi "hakkenkreuz". Little details mean a lot in the language of symbols! The "en pointe" hakkenkreuz implies a much more 'destructive' force than does the "at rest" "Heart of the Buddha". The sva-stika is a symbol that is thousands of years old; it's been found painted on cave walls. It is absurd that a 45-year unfortunate association has tarnished it "forever".
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Post by matt on Dec 12, 2011 18:26:30 GMT
I really don't know what that was. I cant point and say there.. that.. THAT was the original freemasonry. I'm not sure anyone else can either.
We have no real way of knowing what all of the very distinct meanings our ancient brethren assigned to the various masonic symbols. However, I dont feel that has much importance. Freemasonry is not here to hide a specific hidden meaning that we can some day hope to find locked away in a treasure chest. Instead, it's "secret" is the great mystery to which it's symbols serve as conduits. A mystery that can only reveal itself to the individual in an individual way. It really doesn't matter what a symbol means to anyone else. What can it mean for you? That's all that matters. I would also like to point out that the 33 degree structure you are referring to is one of the newest additions to masonry, having come into existence in or around the 1850s (some historian here can correct me on the date when the Chapter Rose Croix became part of the Scottish Rite).
Baphomet is at least several hundred years older than Crowley, and as it has been pointed out, more than once, Baphomet has nothing to do with the Codex Gigas. If something was introduced after the elusive earliest freemasonry, that still does not detract from its value. For example, co-masonry and the theosophical influences it brought into masonry during the late 1800s. The argument that something was or was not 'originally' a part of masonry can not be made, as the history of masonry is foggy, at best, and more likely just completely unknown to today's mason.
In order to state (logically) that any particular symbol is not masonic, one would have to have attained the highest degree in every masonic rite ever to have existed. This does not even take into account that even the term 'masonry' means different things to the various members of this board. Some would emphatically say that some jurisdictions are irregular and therefor not masonry. However, to another member of this board the questioned rites are indeed masonry.
Granted, this does not prove that Baphomet is or ever was a masonic symbol, but logically, no one here can argue that it is not part of freemasonry. They can only argue that it is not a part of any masonry they have experienced.
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Post by offramp on Dec 14, 2011 19:37:14 GMT
Baphomet is surely just a medieval way of saying Mohammed. That is, the Templars had become muslim and were hertics.
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Post by sid on Dec 15, 2011 23:26:52 GMT
Greetings, Baphomet is surely just a medieval way of saying Mohammed. That is, the Templars had become muslim and were hertics. As the 'floating head of the cat' in the London Temple and in Egypt = cat = 'Bast' together with the Arab of Egypt and Mohammed. Knowledge and science came to Europe via a number of countries and cultures etc., and I believe that the word 'Baphomet' is simply a combination of a number of things in 'language'. Unfortunately the 'media' within the esoteric/occult etc., world have chosen to create an illusion based upon a desire to create/projected illusions. Best I can do...
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Post by vajranagini on Dec 20, 2011 4:09:01 GMT
I can assure you all that there is an actual, malevolent entity that calls itself "Baphomet." You do not want to call upon this entity. Your making such a definite statement surely begs the question from the readership: "So under what circumstances did you come to acquire such certainty as to this entity's existence?" I once participated in an evocation, though not of a malevolent being. It was unquestionably an interesting experience. But, Frater Anubis, I daresay YOUR experience must have been even MORE interesting! I would love to hear about it!
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Post by vajranagini on Dec 21, 2011 4:14:56 GMT
Actually , that is the most plausible explanation I have heard thus far!
The image associated with "Baphomet" is unquestionably female; it has BREASTS.
The Divine Feminine on the Tree of Life is Binah, associated with the Planetary Power of SATURN. The goat is a SATURNIAN beast. Female goats have horns, and the image of Baphomet is not masculine in any degree. The Caduceus arising from the lower regions is clearly meant to represent the risen Kundalini or the three currents (Ida Pingala, and Sushumna) arising from the lowest of the Chakras and Mercury is a power not exclusively associated with the masculine; also the lowest Sephirah on the Pillar of the "Feminine Pillar" is HOD, whose associated Planetary Power is MERCURY. Thus it could be said that "Baphomet" is a pictorial metaphor of the Power associated with Binah/ Da'ath; more accurately, it is closer to Da'ath than to Binah, since Binah can only be reached by those who "cross the Abyss".
Plus , it is not at all unusual to have a shocking surprise awaiting the candidate during his/her initiation; the goat that was a standard part of Masonic ritual not so very long ago is an example of this, and may even be part of the basis for the imagery of the "Baphomet"; remember; this picture has only been extant since the 1800s!
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