Alberich
Member
Supreme Superintendent of the Sublime Silver Shovel
Posts: 48
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Post by Alberich on Sept 20, 2012 14:34:37 GMT
As a dire hard Socialist, the most interesting part of Freemasonry for me is it's deeply Socialist message. All equal, no class nor caste. Of course, the gender exclusion is nonsense but that is mainly a relic of a patriarchal age. Anyway, it was just on my mind. Read Animal Farm? The idea is good but practically speaking socialism has proven to be a failure, and weakens the very people it is meant to help. Bit like an over protective/possessive mother will stifle the growth of her child. You are way late to the party and in the meanwhile I think the hen has flown away. Now it's just Rembrandt Vs. Tamrin. I could, like, start a different thread about this new "Melcheezydick" character who's recently appeared on the e-masonry scene behind this huge smokescreen, and whom is presumably smoking out some folks, but that's probably way too controversial and HoT of a topic for here.
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commiegirl
Member
From each according to their wants to each according to their needs.
Posts: 110
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Post by commiegirl on Sept 20, 2012 22:30:43 GMT
Animal Farm is a ridiculous smear piece of fiction written by a government informant. It has no credibility whatsoever. Only those totally ignorant of socialism and who have no theoretic basis at all reference it.
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Post by maat on Sept 21, 2012 0:35:58 GMT
Verily all things move within your being in constant half embrace, the desired and the dreaded, the repugnant and the cherished, the pursued and that which you would escape.
These things move within you as lights and shadows in pairs that cling.
And when the shadow fades and is no more, the light that lingers becomes a shadow to another light.
And thus your freedom when it loses its fetters becomes itself the fetter of a greater freedom. www.famouspoetsandpoems.com/poets/khalil_gibran/poems/2381.htmlWe are all on paths, one or t'other. May the sun shine just enough on each of them. Do your work commiegirl, and may you appreciate the work of others.
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Sept 21, 2012 3:33:15 GMT
Given that Socialism acknowledges our interdependency, the verse may be more apt under the Libertarian or Objectivist threads.
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Post by rembrandt on Sept 21, 2012 4:45:31 GMT
Animal Farm is a ridiculous smear piece of fiction written by a government informant. It has no credibility whatsoever. Only those totally ignorant of socialism and who have no theoretic basis at all reference it. We get it, anyone who does not support socialism is just uninformed. Please fix me.
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commiegirl
Member
From each according to their wants to each according to their needs.
Posts: 110
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Post by commiegirl on Sept 30, 2012 16:32:52 GMT
Socialism is logical. Caring for one another and embracing altruism is what has lead to the human species survival.
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Post by rembrandt on Sept 30, 2012 16:51:03 GMT
How is socialism logical? Are you absolutely certain that is what lead to the survival of humans?
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Sept 30, 2012 21:45:41 GMT
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Post by rembrandt on Sept 30, 2012 21:51:07 GMT
A species survives if the individuals survive. An individual acting in his own self-interest can behave in an altruistic manner. Individual animals that have evidenced altruistic behaviors also exhibit selfish behaviors and even aggression to gain a larger share of resources than conspecifics.
So the evidence doesn't hold that selfish behavior is an aberration that needs to be corrected to return to some idea of a noble savage. If you do subscribe to the ideas in the article that you posted the link to then you should be willing to accept that the selfish behaviors are also evolved and serve to preserve the species.
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Sept 30, 2012 22:05:11 GMT
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Post by rembrandt on Oct 1, 2012 0:20:37 GMT
any minute now.
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Post by dioncapra on Oct 24, 2012 21:02:34 GMT
As a dire hard Socialist, the most interesting part of Freemasonry for me is it's deeply Socialist message. Interesting, nonetheless, that Freemasonry can claim, for example, both Uriah S. Stephens and George Pullman as members. The list goes on . . . and on. The point is, it works in part because politics and religion are left outside the Lodge. Properly observed, Masonry offers a formula, as it were, for such divergent points of view to find common ground. Few institutions can make a similar claim. It's the "proper observation" part that is difficult (speaking from experience). In academic terms, socialism is a topic of political science and as such, a social science. Masonry, as a study of the human condition, would be considered one of the humanities.
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Post by rembrandt on Oct 25, 2012 0:28:50 GMT
You got it Brother, Freemasonry has nothing to do with either economic system. One can be a Mason and actually express the Masonic virtues in any economic or political system.
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Oct 25, 2012 19:37:59 GMT
One can be a Mason and actually express the Masonic virtues in any economic or political system. True, even in a ghetto, a concentration camp or hell. One question is, which society is most like the "ideal society" of which Freemasonry is said to be a microcosm? Another question is, in which societies do the actions arising from those masonic virtues more effectively achieve their objects, such as that of providing relief?
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Oct 25, 2012 19:39:58 GMT
Rembrandt, do you consider "socialism" to be synonymous with "communism"?
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Post by dioncapra on Oct 25, 2012 20:54:18 GMT
One can be a Mason and actually express the Masonic virtues in any economic or political system. True, even in a ghetto, a concentration camp or hell. One question is, which society is most like the "ideal society" of which Freemasonry is said to be a microcosm? Another question is, in which societies do the actions arising from those masonic virtues more effectively achieve their objects, such as that of providing relief? I'm not certain whether the question was posed to the board at large, or Rembrandt in particular. Regardless, I don't agree. There is no guiding principle of unity in the examples you cite. Those would be dog-eat-dog and every man for himself, versus an institution that has leveled the playing field and had the likes of Nelson W. Aldrich and Louis T. McFadden (maintaining a theme) playing in the same band. Ideal society? A fairly vague question, and my first impulse is to ask for clarification. One somewhat obvious response would be Bacon's Bensalem, but that is more a utopian exemplar than a macro/micro relationship. In terms of macrocosm and microcosm, I'd opt for the mean between the extremes of Plato's World Soul and the Mysterium Magnum. I have no idea what you are asking with respect to "relief".
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Oct 25, 2012 23:48:58 GMT
Agree with what? They were questions!
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Oct 25, 2012 23:51:59 GMT
Perhaps the following observation may be useful: THE CASTRATION OF FREEMASONRYAn American Point of View, by Wor. Frederic L. Milliken, (introductory excerpt, www. phoenixmasonry.org, linked above)
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Post by dioncapra on Oct 26, 2012 1:25:18 GMT
CASTRATION OF FREEMASONRY
I've read it. As a matter of fact, I've read both sides of the numbers game observations, beginning years ago with Dwight Smith and "Whither Are We Traveling", the response of the Knights of the North, and on and on, ad nauseam. I don't find it useful. Others certainly have, however. Well, perhaps not useful, but in a few cases, they have found it to be lucrative.
I assume there a point you were attempting to make with the link?
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Post by rembrandt on Oct 26, 2012 2:16:18 GMT
Socialism and communism are the same thing. In the mean time the political or economic system does not matter because Freemasonry is about improving the individual. A Mason should be charitable, forcing people to be charitable does not make them charitable. It is your thesis that a system that institutionalizes and forces charity is a better fit for Masonry.
Neither system is the better fit for Masonry. You have been given ample opportunity to provide something but have failed to do so beyond vague statements.
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