Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Oct 29, 2012 19:18:25 GMT
Witness Dickensian England. Witness the United States of America.
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Oct 29, 2012 19:28:49 GMT
One's right to life does not give the right to another's life. Hyperbole: No one is saying it does. Liberty is nothing if encroaching on the liberty of another. Whenever there are two or more people together in the equation, liberty will always be constrained. The pursuit of happiness is indeed a right but there is no promise that one will achieve it. There is no likelihood of that right being realized if lower order needs, such as food, shelter, security, brotherhood (belonging) and esteem have not been met.
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Post by middlepillar on Oct 29, 2012 22:51:08 GMT
Just to let you all know. The Freemasonry & Communism thread got locked because it became a private political thread between adversaries who were more interested in political gain than Masonic argument.
This is rapidly heading this way.
If I have to read any more Political garbage I will lock this one as well. What I do not understand it that there are hundreds of Political Forums out there, sign up and discuss away. Please do not hijack a Masonic Forum to blow the trumpet of any political system, it has become so boring we have now had 2 long standing members wipe thier accounts I dont want to lose a 3rd
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Post by rembrandt on Oct 30, 2012 4:16:36 GMT
Brother Middlepillar, I think that his discussion is important. There have been offerings that socialism/communism are a better fit for Freemasonry. This is a topic that should be discussed if for nothing more than to not leave such a silly notion in the ether. Alternativley something of merit could arrive.
If you or another administrator wishes to lock it I won't complain, it isn't my forum.
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Post by rembrandt on Oct 30, 2012 4:20:42 GMT
It is not hyperbole Tamrin, it is the key argument in your utopian idea. In order to have a law that fits the ideas of one having a legal requirement to care for another one's life belongs to another.
One person's liberty should be constrained when it encroaches upon the rights of another. If that is not held as true we cannot claim that individuals matter.
The pursuit of happiness is not constrained if one person's happiness is not realized. My happiness may require a mansion and 30 trillion dollars.
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Oct 30, 2012 7:52:39 GMT
There have been offerings that socialism/communism are a better fit for Freemasonry. So you made it clear with no information that communism is not socialism. At least that is solved now. Sure it is a better fit, under your system, when every person can be hammered into submission. Wonderful! At long last you agree "A is not B."
Now please describe how every person is "hammered into submission" by the evil "tyranny of the majority" and please describe your preferred alternative to democracy, to which every person will willingly subscribe.
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Oct 30, 2012 7:54:06 GMT
The first comment to make is that socialism is not communism, and along side that it is a regrettable tendency for many Americans not to understand the difference. It often comes as a surprise that the overwhelming majority of industrialised, Western nations have been profoundly influenced by 'Socialist' notions for the majority of the 20th Century. Principles such as the 40 hour week, free universal health care, automatic pension rights and livable unemployment relief formed the mainstay of European social and political consciousness, irrespective of whether the Right or the Left were in power.
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Oct 30, 2012 8:14:20 GMT
It is not hyperbole Tamrin,... Your hyperbole was in asserting that my position was that the right to life also meant the right to another's life. ... it is the key argument in your utopian idea. Again,l it is not about me. "My" utopian ideal is a reality for many millions of people. In order to have a law that fits the ideas of one having a legal requirement to care for another one's life belongs to another. Come again One person's liberty should be constrained when it encroaches upon the rights of another. Indeed. If that is not held as true we cannot claim that individuals matter. Who is disputing the claim that individuals matter? The pursuit of happiness is not constrained if one person's happiness is not realized. My happiness may require a mansion and 30 trillion dollars. Society determines what is covered by the Social Contract. Arguably it should at least meet your lower order needs so that the pursuit of happiness becomes an option.
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Post by torence on Oct 30, 2012 11:25:10 GMT
It has been a couple of years since I last stopped by the MFoL , let me see if I can add anything to this thread.
To state that Mankind is born equal and to take that condition as a basis to form up a society, fraternal, national, political or otherwise denies our Obvious Purpose, the Divine Mandate. We are born helpless and in constant need. I like to tell the story that when I was born the Doctor took one look at me and slapped my Mother.
While we are given Life by our Divine Creator, we are not guaranteed survival and to be a worthwhile Man and Mason we must take up that challenge. I for one do not see another’s Need as a Claim. As Men and as Masons we must always endeavor to go it alone first if we are going to lay claim to any Achievement and in Socialism we always have it that you are a member of a larger collective rather than an individual. Socialism was “invented” by individuals who are then out up before us like the supposedly divinely born Monarchs that they first sought to destroy and Freemasonry is fundamentally opposed to such idol worship.
The weapon being employed against us, the creative, practical man and FreeMason is Guilt; and, I do not believe that if you are going to be honest about how things have been run in Masonry, or our various governments, that the fundamental flaw is that the lazy have adopted Altruism imposed by a Central Authority which leads to all of the vices of late twenty-first century, first decade of the new millennium FreeMasonry. It is the notion that someone who you do not know, nor are likely to have much can come along as say, “we are going to raise your dues,” or even in some jurisdictions (not mine – Illinois) lay an assessment. You do not have to participate and thank you for your donation. Because, you know, you are not already doing enough on your own to help the aged and the poor.”
Socialism deviates severely from the Original Plan for Masonry. When the Local Lodge gets together, say twenty to twenty-five guys and/or their mates, to pool their resource of their individual altruism in support of a good cause that is FreeMasonry at Work, because their action includes the required element of direct choice.
When Masonry is allowed to take on the form of Socialism with a central authority deciding what is and what is not a good cause, assessing its membership not only for cash but for labor, that is simply a feel good exercise in being kind to the incompetent and one that will only prove to be unsatisfactory both for the individual who practices it and for the recipient.
I, for one, am not that altruistic and we should all resent the incessant demand made by others who wish us to be more generous to them or to puff themselves up in title and rank at our expense.
Fratenally, Torence Evans Ake Secretary – Auburn Park Lodge No. 789 Crete, Illinois MIGS – Triluminar Lodge No. 767 – Lansing, Illinois MIGS – Illinois Lodge of Research Illinois City and Country Steward PM – Arcadia lodge No. 1138 – Lansing, Illinois
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Post by maximus on Oct 30, 2012 11:52:52 GMT
Witness the United States of America. And this proves what, exactly? This is 2012, in case you haven't noticed. A Black man is President, at least for a few more days.
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Oct 30, 2012 19:46:51 GMT
It was you who directed us to witness the United States of America.
Q. What has changed since that photo? A. Increased regulations and social welfare.
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Oct 30, 2012 19:58:43 GMT
It has been a couple of years since I last stopped by the MFoL , let me see if I can add anything to this thread. To state that Mankind is born equal and to take that condition as a basis to form up a society, fraternal, national, political or otherwise denies our Obvious Purpose, the Divine Mandate. We are born helpless and in constant need. I like to tell the story that when I was born the Doctor took one look at me and slapped my Mother. While we are given Life by our Divine Creator, we are not guaranteed survival and to be a worthwhile Man and Mason we must take up that challenge. I for one do not see another’s Need as a Claim. As Men and as Masons we must always endeavor to go it alone first if we are going to lay claim to any Achievement and in Socialism we always have it that you are a member of a larger collective rather than an individual. Socialism was “invented” by individuals who are then out up before us like the supposedly divinely born Monarchs that they first sought to destroy and Freemasonry is fundamentally opposed to such idol worship. The weapon being employed against us, the creative, practical man and FreeMason is Guilt; and, I do not believe that if you are going to be honest about how things have been run in Masonry, or our various governments, that the fundamental flaw is that the lazy have adopted Altruism imposed by a Central Authority which leads to all of the vices of late twenty-first century, first decade of the new millennium FreeMasonry. It is the notion that someone who you do not know, nor are likely to have much can come along as say, “we are going to raise your dues,” or even in some jurisdictions (not mine – Illinois) lay an assessment. You do not have to participate and thank you for your donation. Because, you know, you are not already doing enough on your own to help the aged and the poor.” Socialism deviates severely from the Original Plan for Masonry. When the Local Lodge gets together, say twenty to twenty-five guys and/or their mates, to pool their resource of their individual altruism in support of a good cause that is FreeMasonry at Work, because their action includes the required element of direct choice. When Masonry is allowed to take on the form of Socialism with a central authority deciding what is and what is not a good cause, assessing its membership not only for cash but for labor, that is simply a feel good exercise in being kind to the incompetent and one that will only prove to be unsatisfactory both for the individual who practices it and for the recipient. I, for one, am not that altruistic and we should all resent the incessant demand made by others who wish us to be more generous to them or to puff themselves up in title and rank at our expense. Fratenally, Torence Evans Ake Secretary – Auburn Park Lodge No. 789 Crete, Illinois MIGS – Triluminar Lodge No. 767 – Lansing, Illinois MIGS – Illinois Lodge of Research Illinois City and Country Steward PM – Arcadia lodge No. 1138 – Lansing, Illinois Overall, a good post: Thank you. Albeit, we differ in our understanding of the "Divine Mandate," which I was told is to, "Love one another" (John 13:34) May we all be sufficiently guided by principles to be "traitors to our class" when warranted.
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Post by rembrandt on Oct 31, 2012 1:25:22 GMT
Why should society meet lower order needs for everyone? What is this society that you speak of?
Giving charity and helping others is not being a traitor to one's class. The need for their to be class warfare is just silly.
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Post by rembrandt on Oct 31, 2012 1:27:33 GMT
Let me help you out here Tamrin. Sure thing, socialism is the best fit for Freemasonry. Your words have finally won me over.
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Oct 31, 2012 2:56:59 GMT
Why should society meet lower order needs for everyone? To meet social values (including social justice). What is this society that you speak of? Look around you! Giving charity and helping others is not being a traitor to one's class. Agreed: Which is why I put Torrence's term in "inverted commas." The need for their there to be class warfare is just silly. Agreed: Under socialism we find class cooperation. The welfare states of western Europe were not politically divisive. They were socially re-dis- tributive in general intent (some more than others) but not at all revolutionary—they did not ‘soak the rich’. On the contrary: although the greatest immediate advantage was felt by the poor, the real long-term beneficiaries were the professional and commercial middle class. In many cases they had not previously been eligible for work-related health, unemployment or retirement benefits and had been obliged, before the war, to purchase such services and benefits from the private sector. Now they had full access to them, either free or at low cost. Taken with the state provision of free or subsidized secondary and higher education for their children, this left the salaried professional and white-collar classes with both a better quality of life and more dispos- able income. Far from dividing the social classes against each other, the European welfare state bound them closer together than ever before, with a common interest in its preservation and defense
Tony Judt, FBA
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Oct 31, 2012 2:58:46 GMT
Let me help you out here Tamrin. Sure thing, socialism is the best fit for Freemasonry. Your words have finally won me over. The End
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Post by rembrandt on Oct 31, 2012 3:11:17 GMT
Yup
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commiegirl
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From each according to their wants to each according to their needs.
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Post by commiegirl on Nov 7, 2012 0:36:54 GMT
I will answer a couple of questions.
Is Socialism synonymous to Communism? The short answer is yes. Socialism is and evolutionary stage before Communism. Comrades Lenin, Stalin, Hoxha etc. wrote on this fact extensively, as did Marx. You cannot remove one from the other.
How is Socialism better for Freemasonry than Capitalism? This is simple. Socialism places good on the whole. It's naturally altruistic. Isn't Freemasonry a system of altruism or at the very least altruistic?
The answers are hiding in plain sight.
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Nov 7, 2012 2:22:51 GMT
I will answer a couple of questions. Is Socialism synonymous to Communism? The short answer is yes. Socialism is and evolutionary stage before Communism. Comrades Lenin, Stalin, Hoxha etc. wrote on this fact extensively, as did Marx. You cannot remove one from the other. Even if something ("A") were an evolutionary stage to something else ("B"), it does not mean they are synonymous (i.e., "A" is "B"): Is an amoeba synonymous with a baboon? While both left and right extremists argue that socialism is an evolutionary stage to communism, they are both wrong. In practice, socialism contains social discontent which might otherwise breakout in revolution. Similarly, Marx predicted that communism would arise from within fully developed industrialized societies: In practice, the so-called communist states arose in largely underdeveloped, agrarian societies. I have asked a couple of times for an example of a robust democratic socialist state morphing into a so-called communist one: The silence has been deafening.
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commiegirl
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Post by commiegirl on Nov 7, 2012 2:38:26 GMT
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