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Post by peter2 on Aug 23, 2017 8:31:10 GMT
>the best way to make business is to do always what is the right thing to do.
That is true for businesses that want to last a long time.
Most larger businesses these days are run by managers that are looking out for this year's performance bonus. These businesses only last a couple of decades before they are taken over or collapse.
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Post by wiclas on Aug 23, 2017 10:18:57 GMT
> [Wiclas] One thing what I do not quite get about some religious people is that they do believe in god, but they do not "use" god for anything. Mind that "religious people" come in many shades. A Christian may believe in a (personal) God and pray to him, another prefers to pray to some saint or an angel, because (s)he think God is 'out of reach'. My personal view of God is so abstract that it can't be "used". > [Wiclas] And I wonder something similar with rituals too, what is the point of doing rituals, Personally I like the way Mircea Eliade looked at this. One may celebrate a solstice as a repetition of what happend "In Ilo Tempore" (the very beginning so to say) in order to 'connect' to this event in the dawn of time. I have burnt sun-wheels in the shortest night, not because I thought that without my help the sun wouldn't come back and that the days wouldn't lengthen again, but because it is a cosmic event to 'connect to'. > [Wiclas} [...] if someone do not believe, that anything higher is behind it? See my last example above. Even if somebody does not believe in Gods or a God, celebrating a solstice can be a meaningfull thing. Freemasons celebrate solstices without the whole notion of what these celebrations meant to people in the old days, but most of them love their "Saints John"s. For one it may just the opening or closing of a working year, or looking back at the past and coming year with the intention of doing better. Step out of the whirlwind of life and focus on the things that matter and that is different for everyone. The nice thing about Freemsonry is that different people come together for the same thing, yet a different thing for everyone. > [Wiclas] Some can think me a bit different, but I do see, that doing something and we put our fate on it, it really changes the universe around us, and that kinds of things pulls me to rituals as you do in lodges. If something truly changes your views on worlds, it changes the world. In the best event you change yourself and therefor change the world. There is a Dutch song saying: I replaced a rock in a river, so I changed the world. Freemasonry is about being a better person, so that the world may be a bit of a better place. For one person this will be a thing of morality, for another spiritual development, for the third something else. > [Peter] In my view a Theist is someone that follows a personal god - Jehovah, Odin, Jesus etc. A Theist has someone to pray to. I have Odin tattood on my leg (and Tyr on the other side, connected), but Odin isn't 'the Ultimate Divinity' (or himself even an anthropomorphical God, yet I had him depicted anthropomorphically). There are as many shades as there are people and there are not enough tags to tag everyone. I don't think we should. > [Wiclas] Okay, great to repeat a bit our sights of beliefs. But if one does not believe no supreme being, is he/she an atheist? Does that even matter? There are Christians who think that Hindus are atheist because they don't (all) believe in one greatest God. I wouldn't call them atheists though. It's a matter of perspective and as long at the explanations work for yourself, it doesn't really matter how somebody else explains these terms. > [Wiclas] Have you felt any difference in your life outside a lodge? Have you felt as something higher has directed you in a better direction or something similar? Nope, neither within or without or in another type of ritual. That doens't make them less meaningfull to me though. > [Wiclas] [...] the will to experience spiritual things I don't know if that is true, not in general at least. Like I said, there are Freemasons who do not believe in anything and I doubt that a Freemason who is devoutly Christian will go to lodge for spiritual experiences, the church may be a more logical place for that. Thank you for opening up this for me. Even freemasons do believe higher being, they do not necessarily needs to be a religious? I found one finnish article where one freemason said, that even freemasonry is not a religion, he said that freemasonry is "a very religious organisation". Any opinions on that? And for that being a better person, I answered already, that I feel, I can not get something before I am ready for it. E.g. no one hires me to lead their company, if I am not ready for it. So no matter what we do want in life, we only get something we are ready for. So the change starts with us individually.
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Post by wiclas on Aug 23, 2017 10:49:38 GMT
>the best way to make business is to do always what is the right thing to do. That is true for businesses that want to last a long time. Most larger businesses these days are run by managers that are looking out for this year's performance bonus. These businesses only last a couple of decades before they are taken over or collapse. And whatever is the goal of the company. But I mean, that never "cut the fence", never do anything that could harm the company's future etc. To achieve short time benefits.
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Roy
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Post by Roy on Aug 23, 2017 12:23:05 GMT
> [Wiclas] Even freemasons do believe higher being, they do not necessarily needs to be a religious?
In most cases not indeed. Freemasonry does change over time. In the early days of 'organised FM' its members were Christians, but soon the phrase came that people should "belong to the religion to which all men agree" (or a similar phrase), which mostly still meant: of a monotheistic religion. Nowadays even a conservative country as the USA has (for example) Wicca members. But, as mentioned before, Scandinavia still has a distinctly Christian FM in some organisation.
> [Wiclas] I found one finnish article where one freemason said, that even freemasonry is not a religion, he said that freemasonry is "a very religious organisation". Any opinions on that?
Hm, I'm sure about that. FM certainly is no religion. There is no priest telling you how things are. You have to figure things out for yourself. Maybe a lodge with all Christians (perhaps the person you cite is member of such a lodge) could be considered a "religious" lodge, but in a more general way of talking, "spiritual" is perhaps a better description. Or not even when you include the 'atheistic' brothers and sisters. It is probably easier to see FM as a system with a symbolism that everybody can use in his/her own way, moral, spiritual, religious or otherwise.
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Post by wiclas on Aug 26, 2017 7:59:53 GMT
> [Wiclas] Even freemasons do believe higher being, they do not necessarily needs to be a religious? In most cases not indeed. Freemasonry does change over time. In the early days of 'organised FM' its members were Christians, but soon the phrase came that people should "belong to the religion to which all men agree" (or a similar phrase), which mostly still meant: of a monotheistic religion. Nowadays even a conservative country as the USA has (for example) Wicca members. But, as mentioned before, Scandinavia still has a distinctly Christian FM in some organisation. > [Wiclas] I found one finnish article where one freemason said, that even freemasonry is not a religion, he said that freemasonry is "a very religious organisation". Any opinions on that? Hm, I'm sure about that. FM certainly is no religion. There is no priest telling you how things are. You have to figure things out for yourself. Maybe a lodge with all Christians (perhaps the person you cite is member of such a lodge) could be considered a "religious" lodge, but in a more general way of talking, "spiritual" is perhaps a better description. Or not even when you include the 'atheistic' brothers and sisters. It is probably easier to see FM as a system with a symbolism that everybody can use in his/her own way, moral, spiritual, religious or otherwise. I see that too, freemasonry is closer to spirituality than religion. That sounds interesting that some lodge have wicca members too. Does the religion really count, if the person wants to become better? Within every religion there are great people, and those who do not really follow the great light.
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Post by wiclas on Aug 26, 2017 8:08:00 GMT
Just quoting here, I wanted to start a new topic here, and one interesting thing comes to my mind, There is a common conspiracy theory, that freemasons worships baphomet. I am pretty sure that you do not do this, but is there any idea why such painting exists? Is it someone who had experienced something as this in the lodge, could it be just one memeber's personal demons/aspects, or was it just some conspiracy guy who made the whole thing up? I have also heard, that there is skulls inside the lodge, is this true? And if so, could it be, that the Skull n Bones -organisation has copied the name from freemasonry? Just my wild thoughts that I have always wanted to ask freemasons. It is a priviledge to hear your views on these
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Post by peter2 on Aug 26, 2017 9:01:54 GMT
>Does the religion really count, if the person wants to become better? In my view religion serves to guide those that need guidance. As the human moves beyond belief to knowledge there is less need of such rule-based systems. >freemasons worships baphomet Baphomet is found in the Knights Templar proceedings but it turns out to be a coded reference to Sophia - for which they could have been burned. www.northernway.org/school/templars/R+C/baphomet.html>skulls inside the lodge The skull with crossed leg bones comes via the Templars and before that from the Mithraic ritual and before that it was a symbol of Osiris risen.
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Post by wiclas on Aug 27, 2017 19:51:00 GMT
>Does the religion really count, if the person wants to become better? In my view religion serves to guide those that need guidance. As the human moves beyond belief to knowledge there is less need of such rule-based systems. >freemasons worships baphomet Baphomet is found in the Knights Templar proceedings but it turns out to be a coded reference to Sophia - for which they could have been burned. www.northernway.org/school/templars/R+C/baphomet.html>skulls inside the lodge The skull with crossed leg bones comes via the Templars and before that from the Mithraic ritual and before that it was a symbol of Osiris risen. So the baphomet comes from knights templar, or they had been claimed about it.. do you have btw templar degree inside your system? Does it make you a Templar? And can you tell me a bit of higher degrees, what is the point of them? How many have you done and how far you wish to raise? Do you know many 33-masons? As has been said, there is at least one 32 in Finland as well, so it is not that common... freemasonrywatch.org/pics/masonmap.jpgThis contains so much things that seems interesting.. Knights of malta, red cross, prince of royal secret... and in the other side all knight of light etc.. don't you ever wish to go trought them all? What does it take to became 33 mason, or Knights templar?
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Post by peter2 on Aug 27, 2017 21:18:51 GMT
>do you have btw templar degree inside your system? Does it make you a Templar?
There are templar degrees in Freemasonry. They emerged in the 18th century with the same administration as the Royal Ark Mariners. A series of inner experiences in my meditation group suggests to me that there was some deeper source to both.
The current Masonic Templar brethren that I know have no knowledge of the sources of the original KT or of the inner correspondences to RAM
> higher degrees, what is the point of them? How many have you done
My current status is 31st. In my view the 18th degree is the highest with significant inner teachings - even then later layers of ritual need to be removed.
> Do you know many 33-masons?
Less than 10.
>all knight of light etc.. don't you ever wish to go through them all?
While I learned much from Holy Royal Arch, Royal Ark Mariners and Rose Croix, in my view the craft degrees (first 3 degrees) are the best. In any case I have hardly ever met brethren that are prepared to do the spiritual work necessary to penetrate the symbolism and to practice Masonic Science.
>What does it take to became 33 mason
It is an administrative degree - given to those that take on the highest leadership roles.
Becoming a Masonic Knight Templar is much easier but likely to take about 10 years from initiation as an Entered Apprentice.
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Post by wiclas on Aug 28, 2017 5:18:38 GMT
>do you have btw templar degree inside your system? Does it make you a Templar? There are templar degrees in Freemasonry. They emerged in the 18th century with the same administration as the Royal Ark Mariners. A series of inner experiences in my meditation group suggests to me that there was some deeper source to both. The current Masonic Templar brethren that I know have no knowledge of the sources of the original KT or of the inner correspondences to RAM > higher degrees, what is the point of them? How many have you done My current status is 31st. In my view the 18th degree is the highest with significant inner teachings - even then later layers of ritual need to be removed. > Do you know many 33-masons? Less than 10. >all knight of light etc.. don't you ever wish to go through them all? While I learned much from Holy Royal Arch, Royal Ark Mariners and Rose Croix, in my view the craft degrees (first 3 degrees) are the best. In any case I have hardly ever met brethren that are prepared to do the spiritual work necessary to penetrate the symbolism and to practice Masonic Science. >What does it take to became 33 mason It is an administrative degree - given to those that take on the highest leadership roles. Becoming a Masonic Knight Templar is much easier but likely to take about 10 years from initiation as an Entered Apprentice. There is so many degrees that sounds interesting, I believe that the rose croix got their own fraternity from this degree? Or was it other way around? And do you think that Knights Templar had similar rituals as freemason's templar degree is? How long have you been a freemason? And could you take degrees from the left side (York rite)?
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Post by peter2 on Aug 28, 2017 7:17:56 GMT
>I believe that the rose croix got their own fraternity from this degree? Or was it other way around? The rose appeared in the Old Testament for the first time in the King James version. A couple of years later the Rosicrucians announced themselves and because of the rose could argue that they were really Christians. I think they had a lot of influence before they announced their existence. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fama_Fraternitatis>do you think that Knights Templar had similar rituals as freemason's templar degree The original KT rituals were quite different. The Templars were said to have an oracular head - that would answer questions. By some accounts it was the head of John the Baptist. Long ago I was taught a dance from the island of Kos. The dance was reputedly used by the Templars to open their meetings. >How long have you been a freemason? 35 years. >And could you take degrees from the left side (York rite) I have been through various York rites.
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Roy
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Post by Roy on Aug 28, 2017 8:05:13 GMT
Ah yes, the famous drawing that appeared in Leo Taxil's famous book. It's a nice, symbolic drawing. That Baphomet would be the same as the Devil is a misconception though and the fact that Freemasonry has anything to do with it is too. There is no worship whatsoever in the lodge and Baphomet is no part of Masonic symbolism. Indeed, but no cross-bones in my lodge. There's also a skull not inside the lodge... These details are no fun to discuss if there is the possibility that you will join some day. That will spoil your experience. They are to shed a different light on Masonic symbolism. Many Masons are of the opinion that the third degree (Master Mason) is the highest degree, the rest is for education. " Side degrees" is a term often used, but there is a bit of a technical difference. Should you join Le Droit Humain, you will (most likely) not be able to work in Royal Arch or York degrees, as LDH works solely with the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rites. This one has 33 degrees (there are systems with many more). As Peter said, the 33rd is administrative. In LDH this degree is given to bureaucratic functions. Members of the Supreme Council, for example, are '33'ers'. No idea. I don't find that very interesting and people in my organisation don't brag about it. Like I said, when you join LDH, you'll have the AASR degrees. They've also got fancy names though :-) Just doing your homework and attend the meetings. Sure, you'll be tested in order to be able to proceed every once in a while, but don't think more of it than people coming together to discuss or work with a certain ritual. How long have you been a freemason? [/quote] A little less than Peter: 3. Roy
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Post by peter2 on Aug 28, 2017 8:58:56 GMT
>as LDH works solely with the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rites.
I am not sure that is true. Best to ask them in your country.
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Roy
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Post by Roy on Aug 28, 2017 9:47:12 GMT
I've never heard otherwise, but indeed, better ask.
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Post by wiclas on Aug 29, 2017 18:12:56 GMT
>I believe that the rose croix got their own fraternity from this degree? Or was it other way around? The rose appeared in the Old Testament for the first time in the King James version. A couple of years later the Rosicrucians announced themselves and because of the rose could argue that they were really Christians. I think they had a lot of influence before they announced their existence. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fama_Fraternitatis>do you think that Knights Templar had similar rituals as freemason's templar degree The original KT rituals were quite different. The Templars were said to have an oracular head - that would answer questions. By some accounts it was the head of John the Baptist. Long ago I was taught a dance from the island of Kos. The dance was reputedly used by the Templars to open their meetings. >How long have you been a freemason? 35 years. >And could you take degrees from the left side (York rite) I have been through various York rites. So you have some clue what Templars did in their meetings? I see that freemasons are in some way close to Templars, could you open a bit of the difference between Freemasonry and Knights Templar? For me it seems as Templar have had at least some influence for later time fraternities as Freemasonry, Amorc, etc.. I also found out in the web other kinds of groups and I found Golden Dawn interesting too. Sometimes I feel as there is some truth behind all of them, just a different ways to found that truth out. Perhaps that mysterty is the magnet that pulls towards these kind of activities? Does that Oracular Head mean, that when one has that kind of head/helmet on, he "channels wisdom" from spiritual world? I do not know much of these pracular legends... Have to take time some day and read more about your link.
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Post by wiclas on Aug 29, 2017 18:24:35 GMT
A little less than Peter: 3. Roy These 33 seems for more interesting, but the first three seems to be the most important parts. I have read one book (twice ) about degrees, and I found out that there is a lot of different activities inside three of them. I do not know, but for me it seems as one day you build up a stone, one day "play" with tools, some day walk around the lodge from west to east (for whatever reason) and one day you just die on a carpet. But before that you climb 3 + 5 + 7 stairs, show your knee and have a rope around your neck. Seems logical
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Post by wiclas on Aug 29, 2017 18:25:06 GMT
Failed to quote :/
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Post by peter2 on Aug 29, 2017 22:32:09 GMT
>could you open a bit of the difference between Freemasonry and Knights Templar?
The original KT were not actually original as can be seen by their most rapid rise from perhaps 9 knights to being the most powerful military force in Europe at the same time as developing the first modern banking system and accruing huge amounts of donated land. They may also have been the immediate source of the gothic architecture - where the first examples were the best and the expertise gradually declined.
The rapidity of acquiring their enormous influence may indicate that their real power base was already well established and possessing superior knowledge.
If you wish to pursue that you will need to study the Kabbalah and learn about the Quinotaur.
>Does that Oracular Head mean, that when one has that kind of head/helmet
The legend is that the head actually answered questions. There is no account of it being a helmet.
>Sometimes I feel as there is some truth behind all of them
Quite so. The truth behind them is poorly expressed through most of the forms that are available to it.
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Post by peter2 on Aug 29, 2017 22:36:18 GMT
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Post by wiclas on Aug 29, 2017 23:16:04 GMT
>could you open a bit of the difference between Freemasonry and Knights Templar? The original KT were not actually original as can be seen by their most rapid rise from perhaps 9 knights to being the most powerful military force in Europe at the same time as developing the first modern banking system and accruing huge amounts of donated land. They may also have been the immediate source of the gothic architecture - where the first examples were the best and the expertise gradually declined. The rapidity of acquiring their enormous influence may indicate that their real power base was already well established and possessing superior knowledge. If you wish to pursue that you will need to study the Kabbalah and learn about the Quinotaur. >Does that Oracular Head mean, that when one has that kind of head/helmet The legend is that the head actually answered questions. There is no account of it being a helmet. >Sometimes I feel as there is some truth behind all of them Quite so. The truth behind them is poorly expressed through most of the forms that are available to it. One example why I got interested in spirituality was Knights Templar, and their growth. I do personally believe, that there is much bigger truth than just what we usually believe. And I do believe also that there are many who has used this/these things to gain power and success in life. Thanks for book suggestions, that holy grail is very interesting legend and I see that it includes techinques that works - otherwise it would not grown such a big legend. One sad example, when a person got interested in mystical stuff and get a lots of power, was Adolf Hitler. Could that be, that he found out some secrets of life while searching different religions? Isn't the swastika has came from easter religions? Getting out of topic, but history shows many people who has got so much power that it is hard to see, that there is nothing bigger behind it, and Knights Templar is one example of it. I was not so far away from that oracular things then. So it may be close to spiritual channeling that some people does nowadays as well? And the banking system is genious as well as gothic architecture is, with all usage of golden ratios hidden inside these buildings. Have to love legends of Knights Templar, Holy Grail, lost ark etc etc... and hopefully one day find what it is
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