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Post by Blackadder on Jan 20, 2008 2:10:16 GMT
I cant speak for other lodges in other states.Every meeting we have the flag is presented west of the alter,and the brethren pledge allegiance to the flag of the USA. All brother place there right hand over there heart. As Im not a citizen of the USA I stand at attention during the pledge,which is normal for a person who is not a citizen of the country. Here lies the problem, a few visiting brothers have complained over the past year as to why I dont to the pledge etc. I was never asked directly but I had it clear to a few Past Masters and the District Instructor that I wont be doing the pledge as Im not an American.The said "not problem". But last week the WM said to my very good friend the JW why does the Snr. Steward not do the pledge,he told him hes not an American.The WM told the JW ,so what, he lives in this country and it looks good and someone complained to him and he has only been the WM for two weeks. I spoke to the WM and told him why I dont do it,and if was an American I would be unhappy at people who are not citizens doing the pledge.He then said why dont I just put my hand on my heart? I said why cant I stand at attention in respect.He was not happy at all. At our meeting last week I put my hand on my heart when the brethren did the pledge,it didnt feel right. Has any of the learned brothers of the forum any thoughts on the subject. Correct me if Im wrong ,dont all brothers in Scotland place there hand on there heart when the WM has rapped up the lodge?
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Post by wayseer on Jan 20, 2008 6:33:44 GMT
Sometimes - the when in Rome rule applies.
You can choose to maintain your own action or join in with the others. It seems your Lodge members would like you to join in - and I think it is an honour that they offer a non-citizen the same privileges. - And, they have a point - 'As a citizen of the world I would I enjoin you to be exemplary in the discharge of your civil duties ... by paying due obediance to the laws of the State which may for the time being become the place of your residence or offer you its protection ...' (Charge after Initiation 1st D). What you are doing is purely symbolic in any case and my response is - where's the harm.
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Post by lauderdale on Jan 20, 2008 9:54:08 GMT
Bro Blackadder, both the Scots Masons and those in Le Droit Humain, my own Masonic Body, place our hands over our left breast when stood in Open Lodge and not giving a Sign or Salute etc. This is symbolic of covering the "Safe and Sacred Repository" etc and not connected to any Pledge of Allegiance.
In the USA the Flag Ceremony and Pledge of Allegiance are well known and performed at many Meetings not only Masonic ones. It is difficult knowing what one should do if not a US Citizen but living there and enjoying the protection and earning one's wages in that nation. When in Rome may well be the best policy and I would recall that Margaret Thatcher when the PM of Great Britain and visiting the President of the USA was seen to place her hand over her left breast when the Star Spangled Banner was being played.
If your hosts would feel happier for you to give The Pledge, I would do so. If nothing else it maintains Harmony in the Lodge.
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Post by leonardo on Jan 20, 2008 14:32:39 GMT
Speaking personally I would honour the traditions of the Lodge as I feel being one with fellow Brn. is most important. I agree with Bro John Ford comments: where's the harm? And also the fact you were asked to take part in their tradition says much for how you are respected within that Lodge community.
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Post by windtimber on Jan 20, 2008 19:04:42 GMT
Section 4 of the U.S. Flag Code [4 U.S. Code Chpt. 1] states, in part "The Pledge of Allegiance...should be rendered by standing at attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart. When not in uniform men should remove any non-religious headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart. Persons in uniform should remain silent, face the flag, and render the military salute."
The Flag Code, and as far as I know the U.S. Code for that matter, are - as they should be - silent regarding a non-citizen's posture during the plege. A Google search of "flag etiquette" organizations showed an almost universal, uncodified, rule that a non-citizen should stand at attention, arms at the sides, as a matter of respect. Incidentally, there are no penalties for violation of the Flag Code.
Non-citizen visitors to our lodge are few and have, in my 20 or so years experience, always been from Canada. We do not expect our Canadian brothers to salute the U.S. flag anymore than they, I presume, would expect us to salute the Maple Leaf. We also ask our Canadian brothers, in advance, if they wish to present any patriotic homage to their nation. Some do, some don't, but uniformly we are graciously thanked for the request. At our Grand Lodge and other Masonic festivities where both U.S. and Candian brothers are attending and national songs are presented, both the "Star Spangled Banner" and "O Canada" are performed and the flags of both nations are displayed.
Due respect by standing at attention during the presentation of other nation's national songs and symbols seems absolutely appropriate.
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Post by Antonius on Jan 23, 2008 11:45:37 GMT
note: i oppose pledges of this kind alltogether. Sometimes - the when in Rome rule applies. then again, sometimes it doesnt. i dont think any pledge should be taken lightly, especialy a pledge of alleigiance. and I think it is an honour that they offer a non-citizen the same privileges. it doesnt sound like an honor nor a priveledge to me. it sounds to me more like an emotional need for conformity. also i would note that loyalty to a country and its people is one thing, loyalty to a flag is quite another. where's the harm? i remember it by the name 'national socialism'... in any case i would say that it is not healthy to be swearing loyalty to something you dont actualy believe in. also i would say that a pledge of alleigiance is never a trivial matter. i think Blackadder thought it trough, decided what was right for him and acted accordingly. i cannot see that favoring conformity over this is in any way a good thing.
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Post by wayseer on Jan 24, 2008 2:41:30 GMT
Antonius - you might need to read the other part of my post - As a citizen of the world I would I enjoin you to be exemplary in the discharge of your civil duties ... by paying due obediance to the laws of the State which may for the time being become the place of your residence or offer you its protection ...
You may not be aware but the quote is from the Charge after Initiation which is delivered to all Brethren on their Initiation within my jurisdiction and while in other jurisdiction that Charge might vary I would suggest the context of meaning woulod be the same.
As FM we are charged with morals and ethics of which you are not familiar - if fact, given what I had read from your past posts, our ritual is something you might have some difficulty in understanding. But keep trying.
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Post by Antonius on Jan 24, 2008 15:31:46 GMT
ok, but that still doesnt change my point: what im saying is that pledging aleigiance is something different then what is asked of the mason there. allegiance means loyalty, and a flag is a symbol of meny things, including ideology. and even though we can all agree that that ideology of liberty etc. is a good one, i dont think it is right to force it on an outsider who may not understand it or agree with it. and i dont think the charge u quoted is asking for that. it is merely demanding respect for the local traditions in spite of not identifying with them, and perhaps even disagreeing with them. as for understanding the ritual, im afraid i have not realy researched any ritual. see i still may petition some day, and if and when that day comes i want to go trough it all without prior knowledge, as that might deminish the experiance. so ill likely continue to have trouble. no matter though, my blind stumbling is yielding enuff fruits for me chew on in the meantime.
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