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Post by whistler on Apr 21, 2005 19:26:44 GMT
I was looking at the Affirmation Paper, that candidates for Co-Freemasonry fill in. I wonder how some Forumites would fill it in. ?
1. What is your aim in joining Freemasonry?
2. What do you regard as your principal duties towards:- (a) Humanity ? (b) Your Country ? (c) Yourself ?
3 TESTAMENT:- State the nature of the influence you desire to bequeath to your Brethren.
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Post by munkholt on Apr 21, 2005 20:09:06 GMT
Excellent question!
...
...
... that I will give some thought.
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Post by taylorsman on Apr 24, 2005 9:59:03 GMT
I'll try my best although such a formal Affirmation is not used in UGLE style Freemasonry- perhaps it ought to be?
At best similar questions may be put verbally in the Interview held by the Lodge Committee of an aspiring Candidate but at worst these will be a formulaic proceedure simply to comply with the Rules and unless the Candidate openly declares that he is an Atheist or has serious Criminal Convictions, or "wants to join to further his business or career", he is usually accepted, especially as Lodges have been very short of Candidates for the last 10 years or so here in England for various reasons. I can only think of one man who was rejected by an UGLE Craft Lodge Committee at his Interview and frankly, HE BLEW IT!
Anyway, to answer the questions:-
1 What is your aim in joining Freemasonry?
"To advance my knowledge and undertstanding of such Esoteric Matters as contained in the Mythos, Legends and History of Freemasonry and its interaction with Society, Religion and Culture. To come to a better understanding of myself and society as a whole and my part therein."
2. What do you regard as your principal duties towards:- (a) Humanity ? (b) Your Country ? (c) Yourself ?
a) "To act towards others with the respect , honour and decency they deserve, and as encapsulated in Christianity and other Religions, to do to others as I would want them to do unto me."
b) "To act as a Loyal, Law-abiding and Industrious Citizen and put back into Society at least as much as I take out if not more."
c) "To make best use of the talents and opportunities given me and to follow Life to the full without detriment to my fellow citizens."
3 TESTAMENT:- State the nature of the influence you desire to bequeath to your Brethren.
"To have added to the body of Masonic Knowledge and to have assisted those on the path thereto, encouraging those who seek to partake of Masonry's gifts. To quote the words from the Ceremony of Installation of a WM in UGLE ,'To live Respected and die Regretted'."
I hope this makes sense as a quick answer to some rather profund questions. Now as a mater of interest, would these answers Pass or Fail me for admission to your Co-Masonic Lodges, Bro Whistler?
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staffs
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Post by staffs on Apr 24, 2005 10:08:20 GMT
Steve,i reckon those answers would get you in.
BUT ; You have the benefit of having been an UGLE freemason since time immemorial and have learnt the moral truths and virtues.
Would you have given the same answers had you known little or nothing before petitioning. ?
As a fairly new mason i too looked at those questions and to be honest find them difficult to give an answer to at present and if i look back about 18 months ago then those questions would have completely baffled me as i did not have too much idea what Freemasonry was about or in what direction my life was going.
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Post by a on Apr 24, 2005 10:22:06 GMT
I can only think of one man who was rejected by an UGLE Craft Lodge Committee at his Interview and frankly, HE BLEW IT! I was honest and truthful. If that means that I blew it, then so mote it be.
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Post by taylorsman on Apr 24, 2005 10:29:29 GMT
If the cap fits...........
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Post by munkholt on Apr 24, 2005 10:54:13 GMT
Taylorsman did this a lot more coherently than I am capable of. As I wrote it, I also had the sense that it was all a little bit too abstract - not that it’s bad to have something to strive for, but I think I agree with Lee on this - it’s very hard to be concrete about something you are still only trying to grasp … more so, when you’re also outside the system.
When I filled in my own application, only the first question was asked.
1 - aim First and foremost, I hope to improve and enlighten myself. I believe that Freemasonry offers me an opportunity to do just that. I think the “methods” practised in a lodge are effective: A solumn ceremoni, teaching through aesthethics, symbolism, allegory, dramatisation and more. It is a method that speaks both to mind and a more intuitive learning. Secondly, I admit there is a romantic aspect of associating with a part of cultural history that may or may not include ancient mysteries, knights templar, royalty, esoteric wisdom and more. Third, I wish to work for my order. To help preserve the rituals and work them as perfectly as possible; and keep the order open to and active in the profane world, while working to communicate across lodges and borders.
2a - humanity To show trust, tolerance and love to my fellow man.
2b - country To preserve its history and sense of unity, and participate in the democratic responsibilites. Thus, my duty to country is not to government or borders, but to the people.
2c - myself To learn to love myself, that I may love others.
3 - testament That I put my mind and creative thinking to work - share ideas and interpretations with my brethern. Put to good use my organisational experience - in practical matters, as well as offering my own visions for the future of the order. Pracitising a high quality of work in the lodge. Friendship and loyalty.
(Do you get marks for trying?)
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Post by a on Apr 24, 2005 11:05:57 GMT
1. To come home
2.
(a) To help where I can. (b) To serve as best I can. (c) To learn/evolve/grow as much as I can.
3. To show a way to help individuals open their hearts.
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Post by taylorsman on Apr 24, 2005 11:52:14 GMT
Stewart. It is very difficult if not near impossible to change something from outside and I would say you have boarded yourself out by the way you dealt with the Interview by an UGLE Lodge about a year or so ago. To make changes one has to be on the inside and work from a position of hands on practical experience not merely theory.
Now I am NOT saying you should have told deliberate lies at the Interview. However, one can give "too much information" to use the modern phrase and answer questions that were not actually asked. Most Lodge Committees under UGLE (I can't speak for other Masonic Constitutions) actually WANT to approve a Candidate. After all he is usually a man recommended to them by an existing Member of that Lodge, less commonly by the Provincial Grand Secretary if he doesn't know any Freemasons or none have approached him - which is still the most common way a Man comes to Freemasonry under UGLE. Accordingly, they will not usually reject a man unless he is patently unsuitable, e.g. Atheist, Criminal , etc, or he puts them off by his answers and leads them to believe that he would be a threat to the Happiness and Harmony of their Lodge, after all they are welcoming him, a stranger, into their "home"
Now you have often said you wish to "help" Freemasonry. I honestly think it does not WANT your help and there is nothing worse than someone forcing their advice and assistance on a person or organisation that has neither asked for it nor feels it needs it. Such "busybody" actions often attract a "robust" response!
Stewart, you speak of "coming home". Having read your many postings here and elsewhere and having met and spoken with you I feel more and more that you knocked on the wrong door, perhaps even in the wrong Street. However the "City of the Masons" is large and perhaps you will find it more welcoming and compatible in "Co-Mason Close" rather than "Regular Road". I wish you well in your quest and hope you DO find somewhere you can truly call your "Masonic Home" where you will be happy and fullfilled in it and it and its members with you.
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Post by a on Apr 24, 2005 12:32:47 GMT
Wheey Taylorsman where has all of this come from? Stewart. It is very difficult if not near impossible to change something from outside Ask Nelson Mandela that, or Lech Valessa. Or even any of the multitude of pressure groups that exist. Which is fine I have no issue with that. If I am not the sort of person that UGLE wants to join its ranks, then that is ok. There is no issue here. See post two above. You also appear to assume that I have no Freemasonic experience just because I have never joined a Freemasonic fraternity in this lifetime. Pleased to head this. Which is indeed highly likely. However surely it is better to do this upfront, than join and then be a suprise? I have no issue with this. More than a wish Taylorsman, and I have been doing this for years now. Not just on forums. Your bit may not. And as you know I have had many such responses. The best way that I can describe it is as follows:- I feel like I am coming home. But in my opinion Freemasonry is not in very good order (and I know that many will take issue with this opinion) and it is breaking my heart watching Freemasonry suffer. What should I do offer a hand to help or simply walk away? I have offered my hand and some have taken it, others have not. Which is fine, there are plenty within Freemaosnry who want me doing what I am doing. Remember not all of what I do is done on forums.
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Post by taylorsman on Apr 24, 2005 13:09:03 GMT
I'll buy you a beer anytime, Stewart. I'd even buy the new Pope, Clement XVI, a beer if I met him in a pub or its equivalent, in Rome. I am even quite happy to call you Brother, but as with real familes in real life Brothers can be like chalk and cheese only having in common the DNA they inherited from their parents . I happily call Whistler Brother although I will probaly never meet him nor attend his Lodges nor he mine.
I just do not think, in the light of what I have read from your own hand, that you would be happy in the average UGLE Lodge, nor it with you and it would all end in tears. If other UGLE Lodges and other Regular Lodges such as GL of S, GL of I, European GLs, etc have extended a welcome to you, then that is fine. It may be that you will fit in there.
I do feel that you suffer from delusions of grandeur in comparing yourself with Mandella and Wallesa. Whatever its faults, and yes it does have them, UGLE is NOT Apartheid South Africa or Communist controlled Poland, now both consigned to the dustbin of History. UGLE , in my opinion anyway, only requires some Organisational changes along the lines of the GL of Scotland to give more Autonomy to the Private Lodges , and to reform the Honours System as suggested by me elsewhere. It is still for the Individual Freemason to find what he can in The Craft and follow it as he sees fit and is able. Freemasonry, at least as I know it, does not micro-manage its Brethren, nor should it.
I cannot possibly know if you "joined a Freemasonic Fraternity in another Lifetime" . For all I know you could have been the Duke of Sussex, or even King Solomon or Hiram a Biff! I can only deal with the facts I know and those are that you are a man of 40, well read in many arcane matters, a fairly decent bloke who is fascinated by Freemasonry in its widest sense, but who has a lot of scruples about which if any part of Freemasonry to join.
Finally, as far as I am aware I am not "going through anything" at present save the 52nd year of my existence and the day to day ups and downs of Life and Work. It also amuses me that you claim such a knowledge of the Second Order of SRIA when you are not a Frater being as you are not a Master Mason of a Recognised Lodge, a requirement, along with being a Trinitarian Christian of being a Member of SRIA. However, you could well be an Adept in an alternative version thereof for all I know.
Stewart, you do not "stress" me but you do sadden me as I see you as banging your head against a brick wall when the doorway is but a few feet away. You are stressing nobody but yourself.
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Post by a on Apr 24, 2005 13:22:25 GMT
Taylorsman
I think we had better let this thread get back on topic.
I remain just a simple man.
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Post by taylorsman on Apr 24, 2005 15:39:10 GMT
Suits me Stewart, we will have to beg to differ on this one I feel.
Now as to the idea of the Affirmation Form. I can see a lot of good in this. In most matters in Life these days one has to fill out an Application Form. This is the case of course for a Candidate for Freemasonry under UGLE and I'm sure for many other Constitutions but amongst the questions asked these ones do not feature. I feel that it would be better to put these formally to aspiring Candidates in this manner rather than as a quick "20 Questions" in a Committee Meeting before an LOI as is usually the case.
Now it would be interesting for some other posters here to submit their answers.
Again thanks to Whistler for posting this.
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Post by whistler on Apr 25, 2005 2:48:27 GMT
Some interesting comments - I have never heard of anyone being rejected because of their answers, any unsuitable character would have been weeded out before hand. It does make you think. Staffs look at the Questions 1 : Why did you want to join Freemasonry - You had a reason I am sure. The others just make you think about your responsiblities to others and your self.- You certainly don't need to be -a Freemason Except for question one they are not at all specific to the Craft . They really are very simple questions
Taylorman & Munkholt, Yup you would be welcome.. Stewart, you would be welcome also, but would have problems, IMO you would need to be "Earthed" a little before you can grow masonically
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Post by a on Apr 25, 2005 6:39:53 GMT
Whistler
You have said this before, and I am still thinking about it.
As I view Freemasonry a bit like a father and child relationship, me asking to join really is a non starter just now. Where would I ask to go when I value all Freemasonry?
Perhaps this is why so many Freemasons have told me that (in their opinion) I am a "false phrophet" or "the one" or similar. When all that I am is a simple man who has listened to his heart, and followed it.
Personally I would be very happy not joining as long as Freemasonry finds its way and turns the corner in our rapidly changing world. It is the latter that is important to me.
Anyway back to thinking about Earthing.
Added: There really is no adequate way that I can explain how happy I would be if Freemasonry became more respected in our world today.
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Post by taylorsman on Apr 25, 2005 7:44:44 GMT
As one who works in Electronics I can well understand the need to have a good Earth in a circuit. Not only for the safety aspects but as a reference point for other voltages.
Applying this concept I do feel it would help Stewart to be "Earthed" .
I certainly don't consider him to be a "False Prophet" or "The One" but as just an ordinary man who is searching for something very ethereal and elusive and would like to find it in Freemasonry and is very frustrated that he can't, at least in the Regular variety. I do still feel from the admittedly limited knowledge I have of Co-masonry that it would be a far better fit for Stewart than its Regular counterpart and hope that one day he joins a Co-Masonic Body and is happy and fulfilled therein and finds that which he is seeking.
I have to say I have never personally considered Freemasonry as a Father-Child relationship, anything but. To my mind it is a Fraternity of men (in my case) working together in their various ways, some Esoteric and Symbolical, some Social and Charitable, some a combination of these attributes. Also, if Freemasonry "Turns the Corner" whatever that may mean, then it will do so in its own way and its own time, without reference to Stewart, or me, or any single Individual , apart perhaps from the Grand Master of the day, and not even he until after discussion and consulation with the Board of General Purposes of UGLE. It is for UGLE and its Members to sort things out, as far as they need to be sorted, for themselves.
Returning to the Affirmation Paper, I do feel we would do well to adopt this, preferably formally or at least for Lodge Committees to ensure that these questions are asked at a prospective Candidate's Interview.
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Post by a on Apr 25, 2005 17:53:17 GMT
Cant believe that I missed this first time around no no no, how many times do I have to say that I have found what I am looking for. Found it. Fooooooouuuuuunnnnnnnd it. It may be that I start looking for something else at some future date, but just now, right here and now, I have found "it". Ummm no, completely the wrong end of the stick. It is more a question of what I can do for Freemasonry than what Freemaosnry can do for me. Remember that I already get heaps out of Freemasonry. Umm no, see points above. There is frustration but not in the sense that you mean. Taylorsman, remember that to me Freemasonry is a Divine Gift that is found in our hearts. I have no need to join a Fraternity, but I would like to join them all. That will do for now. Else this would be a very long post.
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staffs
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Post by staffs on Apr 25, 2005 17:57:49 GMT
Stewart ,I trust someone is going to put the toys back in your pram soon ? ;D ;D ;D
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Post by hollandr on Apr 26, 2005 8:41:04 GMT
There really is no adequate way that I can explain how happy I would be if Freemasonry became more respected in our world today. Stewart TGAOTU and various other sponsors have chosen some lodges to improve Masonry. Perhaps you might like to find one and add your efforts Cheers Russell
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Post by a on Apr 26, 2005 13:42:04 GMT
Russell
I know.
Added:-
Russell
I have been aware of a number of things for some time now, but I have had a problem of belief. So I have tested and probed and tested and probed. Now that I am working through the Bailey books that you recommended, I am gaining some comfort in that some of what is written I just know. Other things that are written I can directly relate to my experience. Some of it is still quite difficult for me, but I am getting there.
I have been moving from learning to doing over the last year or so, as you can probably tell, but I do still have to take a leap to help me believe fully. And I am ready to take that leap, and I am confident that I know what I have to do, but I do have to be sure that I have found the right door. And I am getting closer to it. Once I have passed through this particular door, I will then have no problems whatsoever with belief, and then I will really start my work. And this will be soon.
And yes, it will be in a Lodge environment, for group work is so so important.
All that I ask is that (for I know my slowness frustrates some) is that you remember that some things are not easy to believe, even when you understand sponsorship. Though I guess belief would have come easier had I done all of this through the esoteric societies, but had I done this then I would most likely not have gained the skills and perspectives that I need to fulfil my purpose.
And we all, each and every one of us, has a purpose. Perhaps this is why the meaning of life question is so hard to answer, yet so obvious when the answer comes. As with many other things the answer is hidden in plain sight.
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