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Post by taylorsman on Jan 22, 2006 20:51:36 GMT
I read on the TFM.com Forum a thread regarding a proposed change to UK Law to force Men Only Clubs such as those rather exclusive "Gentlemen's Clubs" in Pall Mall and St James in London, to have to admit women to membership. This is no doubt driven by the "PC" outlook of the present Government.
Away from the Politics of this issue is this likely to affect Malecraft Freemasonry such as that run by UGLE?
Many Masonic Centres already allow women to make use of the facilities such as the bar, dining etc and of course some Lady Masons Lodges meet at Masonic Temples but of course separately from the Male Masons.
If the idea is to make Male CLUBS open their Membership and thus facilities to women that is one thing but of course Freemasonry would contend that it is a Society where the Club aspects are but an incidental to Membership and indeed some Lodges do not meet at such Centres anyway.
Is anyone here in a position to say if this proposed extension to anti - sex discrimination Laws could affect Malecraft Freemasonry? In the past it is almost certain that Governments of any colour would have granted an exemption to the likes of Freemasonry but given the anti Masonic attitude of the present Administration (and I don't think the other lot would be more sympathetic under its new leader), can we expect this to be used to try to make The (Male) Craft admit women and if so how should UGLE react?
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Michael
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Post by Michael on Jan 23, 2006 10:22:14 GMT
There was a discussion regarding this on the UK mason list a short time ago with an attached link, which of course I am at this moment unable to find.
I think the summery was that though the legislation was proposed, the time was never given for it to be read out and become law. But i am more than willing to be corrected if those of you on the list kept the link
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Post by corab on Jan 24, 2006 13:21:25 GMT
Away from the Politics of this issue is this likely to affect Malecraft Freemasonry such as that run by UGLE? ... Is anyone here in a position to say if this proposed extension to anti - sex discrimination Laws could affect Malecraft Freemasonry? It's difficult to say, to be honest. In the recent (2003) legislation pertaining to discrimination in the workplace 'reasonability' was a guiding principle, i.e. a Christian school would be perfectly entitled to refuse to employ a non-Christian teacher under that principle. One would certainly hope the legislator to maintain that principle, and also bear in mind that there is nothing to stop a woman from becoming a Freemason, either in single-sex or mixed environment. I am hopeful reasonability will prevail. Cora
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Post by a on Jan 24, 2006 13:34:21 GMT
Remember that life is rarely that simple.
Many UGLE-amity Freemasons, as I understand matters, believe wholeheartedly that it is simply impossible for women to be Freemasons. Now if these voices are heard by the legislators....
Perhaps one of the things that will fall out from this is the recognition and acceptance of female and comasonry as being fully equal with malecraft by all malecraft members?
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Post by whistler on Jan 24, 2006 18:11:38 GMT
Any woman who insisted in being admitted to a Malecraft Lodge, using the Law as her right should/would be black balled _ I would be very sad to see such change forced by the law of the land. With a mischievous thought in mind...If the law should change, Lodges all black ball women applicants which the secret ballot gives them the perfect right to do so., all will be fine until at a little UGLE lodge say in Devon the Brn decide they they think Big Busted Sally the waitress at the local Cafe would be a good Freemason ( She would make a good Steward ) So they invite her to apply "to be one" No Black Ball for her _ She Thus gets initiated - The changed National law would allow this. I guess all would be well until she wanted to visit other UGLE... Funny Old thing life ;D
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ruffashlar
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Post by ruffashlar on Feb 23, 2006 12:12:28 GMT
One would certainly hope the legislator to maintain that principle, and also bear in mind that there is nothing to stop a woman from becoming a Freemason, either in single-sex or mixed environment.
It's really intervisitation which is the problem. Even if you accept sex-specific Lodges as a principle, a woman in female craft and a man in male craft should be able to go and sit together at a mixed-sex Lodge; and women in mixed-sex Lodges be able to visit female craft Lodges, and men in mixed-sex lodges visit male craft Lodges.
As things stand, a male craft Mason faces the boot if he even sniffs the mince pies in a mixed-sex Lodge. at the very leasst, there should be Masonic Mixers where men and women of different traditions get to meet and mingle and discuss topics of mutual interest. I'd bet a good few Lodges, spear and distaff sides alike, would stay afloat if they collaborated on a social level with their local opposite numbers.
With a mischievous thought in mind...
I very much doubt it would be somewhere out in the sticks, where the roads are bad but traditions strong. More likely it would be some inner-city Lodge with a liberal mandate from its own members.
Besides, a policy of blanket blackballing would be discriminatory. I'd say, let every case be tried upon its own merits. If a woman wants to join that badly, when Lodges are scratching themselves looking for Candidates, why not let her? As the Chinese say, three men make a tiger: establish a precedent, and people will start to find it credible.
Before I'm dead, there'll be a woman in UGLE or Amity. Before the century's over, there'll be a woman Grand Master Mason - and she won't be a Nob.
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Post by taylorsman on Feb 23, 2006 12:33:28 GMT
Female Grand Master Mason of the GL of S? Possible if women were admitted as your GMM is ELECTED on a popular franchise. Highly unlikely in UGLE as their GM is SELECTED and stays in Office until he either dies or retires.
As far as "mixers" are concerned, if UGLE was less Po-faced and dropped its ridiculous opposition to the Order of the Eastern Star and permitted its Bretheren to join it along woth their wives /partners, as is perfectly acceptable to GL of S, then there could be a medium for such mixing without the hard liners in anyway compromising their position on this contentious issue. For a start perhaps the "Powers that Be" at GQS should take up the Invitation given years ago by OES and accepted by GL of S to come and see for themselves what OES actually does.
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Post by gord on Feb 23, 2006 15:19:46 GMT
Female Grand Master Mason of the GL of S? Possible if women were admitted as your GMM is ELECTED on a popular franchise. Highly unlikely in UGLE as their GM is SELECTED and stays in Office until he either dies or retires. As far as "mixers" are concerned, if UGLE was less Po-faced and dropped its ridiculous opposition to the Order of the Eastern Star and permitted its Bretheren to join it along woth their wives /partners, as is perfectly acceptable to GL of S, then there could be a medium for such mixing without the hard liners in anyway compromising their position on this contentious issue. For a start perhaps the "Powers that Be" at GQS should take up the Invitation given years ago by OES and accepted by GL of S to come and see for themselves what OES actually does. Greetings all: In British Columbia, Canada and other parts of North America we do have the OES and other groups where men and women or just women can attend and take part in the work of masonry. The ritual is different than craft masonry but that doesn't make it any less important or interesting. See: The Masonic family: freemasonry.bcy.ca/textfiles/family.htmlThe ties between the OES, The Order of the Amaranth and the craft lodges is very strong. Many masons belong to these orders along with their wives. When we have special events in our craft lodges we will generally have a womens' entertainment on the same day such as tickets for theatre and then meet afterward for a dinner all together. On Christmas we all meet and not only are the adult orders sitting together for repast but the junior orders like the DeMolay and Job's Daughters take part. Our present GM is a strong supporter of the masonic family and each craft lodge this year will have one meeting where the junior orders are invited to demonstrate their ritual for the brethren. This openess is appreciated by all. One of my elder brethren remarked to me the other night how he wasn't even allowed to let brethren in the craft lodge know he was a shriner years ago. Now we are quite open to all about any concordant or appendant body we belong to. Certainly nothing other than the information that we belong to other bodies is ever discussed, but I feel it is a healthy and happy situation. A similar way of doing things might be good for Great Britian as well. At least here is a model that you could look at for consideration.
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Post by ingo on Feb 23, 2006 20:06:12 GMT
Steve I would not like to be forced the open lodges by law too. But maybe the acceptance of co-masonic and women-only GLs by the UGLoE could solve the problem.
It is always the problem how and if a state gouvernement can or should change society. Here in germany we have the problems with muslim fundamentalists. They prevent their girls from joining sports, swimming or other school activities because the girls - do not laugh - if boys are present, could become pregnant. So they have to stay at home, no freindship is possible even not to german girls. Segregation. For decades the gouvernement ignored the problem, now they want to force the parents by law.
I do not want to compare both subjects but I guess their must be some attitude for the one and the other.
What is the reason for your gouvernment to discuss the subject towards freemasonry?
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ruffashlar
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Post by ruffashlar on Feb 24, 2006 3:13:42 GMT
They prevent their girls from joining sports, swimming or other school activities because the girls - do not laugh - if boys are present, could become pregnant.
That's not Islam - it's ignorance.
We have to stamp it out. If the nut will only crack when you use a hammer, then that's what it may just take.
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Post by maat on Feb 24, 2006 3:16:27 GMT
Better if recognition of equality comes naturally and from within - IMO
Why doesn't someone just make contact with open and Light minded people from other masonic 'disciplines' - organise a PUBLIC talk in a PUBLIC place and invite the PUBLIC along.
I am sure there would be a University type who would just love to sprout about ? Symbols and Allegory. Give him 20 mins to talk and then ask one person from each of the disciplines to give a shorter talk on a specific symbol of their choice. Coffee break in the middle so all can mingle - question time at the end. Bet it goes overtime.
Traditional "we don't like you's" might find themselves asking 'why?'...
Men might lose their fear of women (bloody mothers they have a lot to answer for ;D)...
'The public' might find something about Masonry that makes them curious and want to know more...
Plans are afoot to give it a try here.
We did have something along these lines when Bro Bob Cooper was here on a talking tour. This was sponsored by the Male Craft's Lodge of Research and was open to the public. It was very well attended with a fair smattering of women and lots of happy and eager faces at the end. Friendships were forged...this is the important part!
Maat
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Post by ingo on Feb 24, 2006 15:40:09 GMT
Ruff Thats an interesting point. But what if Labour shows the same attitude as you concerning freemasonry? Everybody I want to emphasize the fundamantalistic wave which comes up from muslim countries and minorities. If freemasonry - whether it is male-only, women-only or co-masonic could see its threath and the treath of waht we call benefits of the enligthment - we should see that not the other GL but the fundamentalism - either christian or muslim - is our enemy! If this is the nut, we will have to crack it together.
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ruffashlar
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Post by ruffashlar on Feb 26, 2006 20:17:57 GMT
But what if Labour shows the same attitude as you concerning freemasonry?Entirely dissimilar - a comparison of apples and oranges, as they say. Nothing in which Freemasonry is involved is illegal, ignorant or against the principle of a free and secular society. Arguably a bit retro , but that's hardly a crime, is it? ;D
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Post by ingo on Feb 26, 2006 22:40:02 GMT
Ruff Politics never is rational, it is emotional. If you change the keywords you can always mobilize thousands against or in favour of something. It is OUR interpretation that masonry is good. It is not the one of Labour I am afraid.
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Post by maat on Feb 26, 2006 23:37:47 GMT
Nothing in which Freemasonry is involved is illegal, ignorant or against the principle of a free and secular society.
Arguably a bit retro , but that's hardly a crime, is it? ;D But how can you be so sure about some of its members? I remember a rather warm thread on 'ignorant' bullies not so long ago. Free? - how come its so hard to get into? Free? - to half of society? Free? - as long as you don't association with those 'others'? I love Freemasonry - but I am not blind. Maat
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Post by ingo on Mar 2, 2006 11:38:35 GMT
Ruff sure, we are no criminals. But if you look at the so-called P2-lodge in Italy and its (former) member PM Silvio Berlusconi, it is hard to believe that freemasonry is only a social club of "men becoming better men". You can hardly argue that only its founder Gelli was a expelled freemason and noone else. For all the others we might be criminals. Freemasonry always faced seroius social changes. before 1789 there existed a large adoptive masonry in France - much larger than many male-only GLs in Europe today! Co-Masonry with interesting rituals. But the revolution and afterwards Napoleon ended up the thing. Just a cut-up! Why should modern societies to-day not change groups in another way?
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giovanni
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Post by giovanni on Mar 2, 2006 18:47:54 GMT
Ruff sure, we are no criminals. But if you look at the so-called P2-lodge in Italy and its (former) member PM Silvio Berlusconi, it is hard to believe that freemasonry is only a social club of "men becoming better men". You can hardly argue that only its founder Gelli was a expelled freemason and noone else. For all the others we might be criminals. Ingo, Gelli was the sole P2 member who was condemned by a profane Italian Court for the bankruptcy of Banco Ambrosiano. Other Freemasons have been expelled by GOI itself. Just for exactness.
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ruffashlar
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Post by ruffashlar on Mar 4, 2006 21:07:25 GMT
Everybody get their rottweilers to stop chewing my shirt-tail.
I wasn't talking about some people who might call themselves Freemasons and who do engage in stupid or criminal activities.
It doesn't have any bearing on what we do here or how I regard the Craft of which I am a part.
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Oct 30, 2006 7:27:46 GMT
I agree with Whistler when he says: “ I would be very sad to see such change forced by the law of the land.” I disagree with him in so far as he proposes opposition to any such a move. As a child, I remember seeing a ‘No Smoking!’ sign in a train carriage which read “ Considerate People Will Not Smoke, Others Must Not!” and would apply the same principle in this case. One would like to see mainstream lodges admit women because they choose to practice what they preach. Sadly, this is not likely to happen without litigation and, once internal remedies are exhausted, one may be obliged to take the matter further. Indeed, I have tried to do so myself. In The Courts and Freemasonry: Case histories that have or could affect Freemasonry, (1986, p.40) Alphonse Cerza, in speaking of US cases (Australian and the UK courts can and often do recognize comity with US precedents), cites a ruling in the case of the Jaycees which found they were neither small nor sufficiently selective (apart from gender) and, as such did not meet the definition of a private club to qualify for exemption from anti-discrimination legislation. Freemasonry is in a similar position. Beyond that, there is the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women, which permit of no exemptions. See this Recommendations Page from my website for further details. The U.K. is one of the countries which has ratified the optional Protocols to the Convention (making it enforceable)*. After exhausting internal remedies within the organization and government, just one aggrieved person could take their case to the international tribunal and force an historic change. PLEASE DO SO!* N.B., Australia has so far refused to ratify the Protocol but the opposition has promised to do so when it next wins office.
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staffs
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Post by staffs on Oct 30, 2006 7:32:29 GMT
And would women only masonry be forced to admit males ?
A few black balls would probably be cast in both cases.
I like my UGLE male only masonry and i am sure that women like their women only masonry and would not like to be forced to admit the opposite sex.
I totally respect co masonry also and their own rules# and see nothing wrong with all three options.
Women CAN be freemasons but within their own organisations.
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