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Post by billmcelligott on Sept 26, 2007 7:49:00 GMT
Well I think that is just about what was said by wayseer.
You said : By extending the Jurisdiction, one extends the power and the hold. Granting RECOGNITION, or refusing to grant recognition AND MOST IMPORTANTLY - THREATENING TO WITHDRAW RECOGNITION does the same thing. Threats turn tools into weapons. Despotic rulers know this well.
So am implied assessment but your right you did not actually say they were despots.
However if we are referring to UGLE recognition I would agree that any threat for advantage is wrong, if you find any evidence of this kind of threat I would be happy to help expose it.
Not what I meant really, I was referring to being humble before being assertive, I had a big struggle with this one. Humility does not come naturally to me. As I am so good. My song used to be.
"Oh Lord its hard to be humble, when your perfect in every way"
Of course
You mean they did not go to number one.
I remember when Jesus washed the feet of the disciples before he let them know he was about to be betrayed.
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Post by lauderdale on Sept 26, 2007 8:07:58 GMT
Reading this thread, and trying to wade through waist deep chaff and diversions in some cases, I am left with one question.
For centuries as far as the ordinary "man in the field" was concerned there was no hard copy of the Bible or any other VSL available to them. It took the invention of the movable type printing press by Johan Gutenberg to alter that as hand written Bibles etc were the preserve of the Rich or the Clergy. Also the majority of the populace were illiterate.
Now what did these people do had they they need to Swear an Oath or make a Vow? I assume it was against those Religious Principles, (learned by word of mouth) they held to be Sacred?
I have no problem with the Blank Book VSL as to my mind the Candidate is swearing an Oath against the Principles they hold to be Holy in their Heart and I would rather have that than an insincere Oath taken for the sake of form on a the most beautiful Leather bound and Gold Tooled Bible if that book meant nothing to the Candidate.
In my own case I have Sworn my Obligations on the King James Bible but I do not take it to be Literally True nor do I consider it to be particularly Divinely Inspired. It was what it signifies that means something to me.
If UGLE and those GLs in Amity therewith wish to have a list of approved VSLs no doubt related to known Religions then that is their affair. Equally, if parts of non UGLE Freemasonry are happy to accept alternative VSLs or Totemic items for Candidates to Swear their Obligation upon then that is for them to decide and is to me of equal value.
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Post by lauderdale on Sept 26, 2007 8:12:47 GMT
"you could then say, no need for Churches."
There are many devout Christians who would say precisely that!
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Post by lauderdale on Sept 26, 2007 8:29:37 GMT
Wayseer. I was indeed dissatisfied with Mainstream Malecraft Freemasonry and have been very "gruntled" indeed since I moved over to Co-Masonry in December of last year. The more I learn of my new Masonic Affiliation the more I like it and only regret that I did not make the change years ago, being unaware of Co-Masonry even existing 19 years ago when I first became a Freemason.
However, if I am aware of something which I feel needs criticism as regards UGLE etc or read on a Forum such as this a statement with which I disagree or to which an alternative viewpoint can be made I reserve my right to post on same, fully accepting that I may well be attacked in return by someone , possibly yourself, who holds a contrary opinion.
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Post by wayseer on Sept 26, 2007 11:44:58 GMT
First, to Bro Bill. Thank you for your support and I hope you stick around for a while because your skill may again yet be needed in translating what I'm about to say.
Bro Lauderdale wrote -
... accepting that I may well be attacked in return by someone , possibly yourself, who holds a contrary opinion.
My sincere apologies. It was not my intention to 'attack' anyone. If you believe my posts have attacked you then I can only add that is not the reason for my comments - sorry.
All.
My comments are directed at the inconsistencies that appear in many posts - demonstrated by the fact that while arguing one point the very words used articulate another position.
For instance, one Bro argued that he had no need of books or social involvement in determining his position while using the English language to construct sentences to argue his case. Others have commented that the ethics they abide by are somehow innate to them apparently ignoring the fact that we are all born with a clean slate while others claim that they have no need of any VSL to direct them but, again, apparently ignoring the fact that they are members of a Lodge or at least participating in a Masonic forum. And, Yes, others have tried to convince me that GL is somehow controlling their personal lives yet demonstrating that such is obviously not the case.
I acknowledge that some of you have left mainstream Masonry for varied reasons in the hope of finding something more satisfying. That is your call. Yet, I am lead to accept, by various posts, that the reason why you left was to gain some better understanding of the Masonic journey. From the above correspondence I am not convinced you have reached that state of perfection which you portray.
I used the illustration of the mirror earlier in the thread. I wonder if any read what I wrote. The mirror represents our true nature, pure and undefiled. The grim and dust is our own ignorance while the cleaning agents are the various methods used to clean the surface - but the essence of the mirror in unaffected by any of these activities - dust or cleanser. The problem is that we are taught that mirror is a mirror because it reflects images - and don't we just think we are the cats whiskers looking into that mirror. The mirror, itself, is not concerned with how we see ourselves. The essence of the mirror in unaffected by our presence, i.e. change - our image appearing in that mirror may change over time and the surface of the mirror may change - its essence does not change. The problem is that we are distracted by our own image in the mirror and fail to understand the essential nature of the mirror . Our job is to understand the essence of the mirror - not get carried away by the image appearing therein.
We can all get carried away by seductive reasonings and tempting strategies at times but the essence of the teachings, which are not written on blank pages or jam jars, will remain - long after the latest fad had been well and truly buried.
If I have triggered within you some uncomfortable feelings, if I have caused to pause and think, if I have made you question then I have achieved some small objective.
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Post by lauderdale on Sept 26, 2007 11:59:18 GMT
Do not flatter yourself Wayseer, I am not bothered if you attack me or not. I can as you have seen give back as good as I get and do so regularly.
As to "Uncomfortable Feelings" you engender no more of those in me than an annoying insect coming in through the window on an autumn evening, to be ignored until it flies in your face then swatted. To be honest I ignore most of what you post.
Nor am I seeking "Perfection" as I know that this is not attainable in this life.
If you have achieved anything with me it is to confirm the wisdom of the change I made and exemplify many of those attributes of Mainstream Malecraft Freemasonry I came to dislike and from which I am now thankfully free.
If you feel it is now time to move on, please do not let me stop you.
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Post by brandt on Sept 26, 2007 12:03:18 GMT
That may be Brother, will you re-initiate me to make sure that it is done right? The point of contention that I am raising is over the idea that it is nothing more than "me changing me." You seem to agree that there is a purpose for the lodge. What would that be? Brandt "As my pal keeps repeating, its about me changing me, not me changing you. " If that were the case then there would be no need for lodges. There is more to it Brother. Brandt Could not disagree more. how on earth can you possibly think anything can be affected for the better if you yourself are defective. No need for Lodges, you could then say, no need for Churches. Brandt, in my humble opinion, the Lodge is the place of contemplation, the place where you should be striving to build the Temple to the honor and Glory of the Most High. The Temple is you, in my opinion if any Freemason has missed that he / she should go back to the beginning and start again.
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Post by lauderdale on Sept 26, 2007 12:21:52 GMT
Bro Brandt, I have never had much time for that Slogan about "it changing me" , it reminds me too much of those found in Christmas Crackers along with a paper hat and cheap plastic trinket.
Freemasonry does have effects on all who join it, to a greater or lesser extent. As to how much it changes us or we change it, only it and we can know or judge.
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Post by gipsyrose on Sept 26, 2007 13:49:04 GMT
Getting back to Mike's question about what is wrong with the status quo, I am fine with there being male, female, and mixed lodges. However I have a wish-list of a few things I would like to improve.
I would like 1) LDH and the Eastern Order to reconcile, or at least mutually recognise each other 2) HFAF and OWF to approve women from LDH participating in their ceremonies if they so choose, and vice versa 3) UGLE and similar male-craft organisations to be OK with a man attending a co-masonic lodge if he so wishes 4) For those male lodges who would like women to participate to be able to do so
gipsyrose
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Post by ingo on Sept 26, 2007 14:00:39 GMT
Gipsyrose There has no more but also no less to be added. Feel the same way. Fraternal regards Ingo
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Post by leonardo on Sept 26, 2007 14:05:25 GMT
Getting back to Mike's question about what is wrong with the status quo, I am fine with there being male, female, and mixed lodges. However I have a wish-list of a few things I would like to improve. I would like 1) LDH and the Eastern Order to reconcile, or at least mutually recognise each other 2) HFAF and OWF to approve women from LDH participating in their ceremonies if they so choose, and vice versa 3) UGLE and similar male-craft organisations to be OK with a man attending a co-masonic lodge if he so wishes 4) For those male lodges who would like women to participate to be able to do so gipsyrose I seems a good wish-list. When you see it written like that you can be forgiven for asking, "Why is it not this way already?"
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Post by ingo on Sept 26, 2007 14:09:39 GMT
Dear Leo, why is there a pope and excommunication? And the so-called "non-believers"? Fraternal greetings Ingo
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Post by devoutfreemason on Sept 26, 2007 14:19:56 GMT
Getting back to Mike's question about what is wrong with the status quo, I am fine with there being male, female, and mixed lodges. However I have a wish-list of a few things I would like to improve. I would like 1) LDH and the Eastern Order to reconcile, or at least mutually recognise each other 2) HFAF and OWF to approve women from LDH participating in their ceremonies if they so choose, and vice versa 3) UGLE and similar male-craft organisations to be OK with a man attending a co-masonic lodge if he so wishes 4) For those male lodges who would like women to participate to be able to do so gipsyrose I have another one to add. The establishment of the Grand Orient Of The USA.
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Post by leonardo on Sept 26, 2007 14:22:27 GMT
Dear Leo, why is there a pope and excommunication? And the so-called "non-believers"? Fraternal greetings Ingo Hi Ingo. Although I was raised Catholic in my formative years I am no longer a part of that branch of Christianity so really am not in a position to answer in any meaningful way.
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Post by mike on Sept 26, 2007 14:33:07 GMT
Getting back to Mike's question about what is wrong with the status quo, I am fine with there being male, female, and mixed lodges. However I have a wish-list of a few things I would like to improve. I would like 1) LDH and the Eastern Order to reconcile, or at least mutually recognise each other 2) HFAF and OWF to approve women from LDH participating in their ceremonies if they so choose, and vice versa 3) UGLE and similar male-craft organisations to be OK with a man attending a co-masonic lodge if he so wishes 4) For those male lodges who would like women to participate to be able to do so gipsyrose So you wouldn't add the reconciliation of the HFAF and OWF as well? The HFAF was formed by a split away from the OWF (as it is known today) Sometimes I think I know more than I should. M
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Post by billmcelligott on Sept 26, 2007 14:36:01 GMT
Naaaagh, that cant be right.
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Post by billmcelligott on Sept 26, 2007 14:50:26 GMT
Getting back to Mike's question about what is wrong with the status quo, I am fine with there being male, female, and mixed lodges. However I have a wish-list of a few things I would like to improve. I would like 3) UGLE and similar male-craft organisations to be OK with a man attending a co-masonic lodge if he so wishes 4) For those male lodges who would like women to participate to be able to do so gipsyrose I am not sure those who wish to see inter-visitation become a reality have thought this through. Lets say today UGLE pass a rule that allows me to visit Steve's LDH Lodge and that I would be welcome to visit. Now I could quite easily bring somewhere near 100 members of my Lodges with me, from Initiates to Grand Lodge Officers. If indeed the visitation rules were relaxed LDH would I suggest run the risk of being swamped by the UGLE membership. The same could be said for female Craft. LDH seem to be doing just fine as it is so I don't really understand this hunger to be recognized by everyone. I mean they are taking the cream of the malecraft so it seems to be acquisition by stealth. ;D Now I have proposed to the Grand Master that all 300,00 malecraft members join LDH and then we could control it in retaliation, but I am not sure he will go for it. [ its a joke ] But like others have said if it works the way it is accept the Quo.
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Post by billmcelligott on Sept 26, 2007 15:07:18 GMT
I am sure that will not be required, you will come to accept the undisputed excellence of my wisdom. Its the old adage of throwing a pebble into a pool the ripples will reach every point of the pool. No Lodge , no pool. How do you best influence others? By making yourself the example to follow. If you can look in a mirror and say, " I have done the best I can" youve cracked it.
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Post by brandt on Sept 26, 2007 15:20:02 GMT
Brother Bill, Of course I accept the undisputed excellence of your wisdom. Leadership is influence, it is also action that affects others. Just working on one's self and not extending outward is also missing the point.
Brandt
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Post by billmcelligott on Sept 26, 2007 16:03:15 GMT
Brother Bill, Of course I accept the undisputed excellence of your wisdom. Leadership is influence, it is also action that affects others. Just working on one's self and not extending outward is also missing the point. Brandt Extending outwards before working on yourself, is not indicated anywhere in Masonic tenetts. Plus its not a good idea. But if we listen to the address to the Wardens we hear. "Suffice it to say that what you find Praisworthy in others you should carefully imitate, and what in them may appear defective you should in yourself amend". So to answer both your question in one short sentance, its all in the ritual you just have to listen. Within the Lodge you will be taught what you should use out of it.
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