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Post by whistler on Apr 26, 2005 20:18:04 GMT
I lifted this from the Polls Board. I have two quick questions Are these books specifically about Co-masonry or do they refer to the Rite of Misraim ? Were these books written prior to or after the discovery of the Rosetta Stone (1799) GP Hi General Pike, you might start with C W Leadbeater 1926 Glimpses of Masonic History. 1926 The Hidden Life in Freemasonry. and THE RIGHT ANGLE MASONRY From the Writings of H.P. Blavatsky From HPB. H.P.B. says: Modern Masonry is undeniably the dim and hazy reflection of primeval Occult Masonry of the teaching of those Divine Masons who established the Mysteries of prehistoric and prediluvian Temples of Initiation, raised by truly superhuman Builders. According to the Belgian Mason, Ragon, a Francmaçon (not maçon-libre) was initiated into the ancient Mysteries. In English maçon is translated into Mason. ESTABLISHMENT OF A DOCTRINE In his Orthodoxie Maçonnique, rightly or wrongly, Ragon, an illustrious and learned Belgian Mason, reproaches the English Masons with having materialized and dishonoured Masonry, once based upon the Ancient Mysteries, by adopting, owing to a mistaken notion of the origin of the craft, the name of Freemasonry and Free Masons. The mistake is due, he says, to those who connect Masonry with the building of Solomon's Temple, deriving its origin from it. He derides the idea, and says: The Frenchman knew well, when he adopted the title of francmaçon [which is not maçon-libre, or freemasonry], that it was no question of building the smallest wall, but that of being initiated into the ancient Mysteries veiled under the name of Francmaçonnerie, which could only be the continuation or the renovation of the ancient mysteries; he was to become a mason after the manner of Apollo or Amphion. And do we not know that the ancient initiated poets, when speaking of the foundation of a city, meant thereby the establishment of a doctrine? Thus Neptune, the god of reasoning, and Apollo, the god of the hidden things, presented themselves as masons before Laomedon, Priam's father, to help him to build the city of Troy - that is to say, to establish the Trojan religion. [S.D.II, 795-6] MYSTERIES - ATLANTEANS The Mysteries were carried into South and Central America, Northern Mexico and Peru by the Atlanteans in those days when A pedestrian from the North [of what was once upon a time also India] might have reached - hardly wetting his feet - the Alaskan Peninsula, through Manchooria, across the future Gulf of Tartary, the Kurile and Aleutian Islands; when another traveller furnished with a canoe and starting from the South, could have walked over from Siam, crossed the Polynesian Islands and trudged into any part of the continent of South America. They continued to exist down to the day of the Spanish invaders. These destroyed the Mexican and Peruvian records, but were prevented from laying their desecrating hands upon the many Pyramids -- the lodges of an ancient Initiation -- whose ruins are scattered over Puente Nacional, Cholula, and Teotihuacan. The ruins of Palenque, of Ococimgo in Chiapas, and others in Central America are known to all. If the pyramids and temples of Guiengola and Mitla ever betray their secrets, the present Doctrine will then be shown to have been a forerunner of the grandest truths in Nature. Meanwhile, they have all a claim to be called Mitla, "the place of sadness" and "the abode of the (desecrated) dead." . Now that is a point of view
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ruffashlar
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Post by ruffashlar on Apr 27, 2005 2:32:07 GMT
Mictlan is the land of the dead, an underworld ruled by the skeletal Mictlantecuhtli and his wife Mictecacihuatl. Yet in the iconography of Aztec pyramids, he is depicted as occupying the top of the pyramid. This inversion is continued in Aztec magical thinking, which accords all magical acts with an inverted significance on the magical plane. Accordingly death signifies life and fertility, whereas sex means infertility. The soil has revealed countless votive offerings in the form of skeletal figures enacting every conceivable [sorry] form of non-procreative intercourse. These theories of magical logic are not to be found anywhere in the rest of the world, severely discrediting a common origin with, for example, Afro-Semitic cultures.
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Post by generalpike on Apr 27, 2005 11:20:49 GMT
You may have misread the intent behind the question.
The only masonic Order (that I have come across so far) that actually and in no uncertain terms claims a direct tradition from Ancient Egypt is the APR of Memphis & Misraim. By that I mean that the Order itself rather than its individual adherents makes the claim.
It interestingly did so (according to its own history) before the discovery of the Rosetta Stone dating its first recorded activity in Europe to 1738 with the Rite of Misraim.
So I was just wondering if the books that you mention are from the government of the order itself and actually state unequivocally that its (the Order's) Ritual and tradition is founded in Ancient Egypt.
Totally for my own info as if they are and do I would add them to my list.
PS thanks for the excerpts, very interesting. GP
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Post by hollandr on Apr 29, 2005 5:42:07 GMT
The only masonic Order (that I have come across so far) that actually and in no uncertain terms claims a direct tradition from Ancient Egypt is the APR of Memphis & Misraim. By that I mean that the Order itself rather than its individual adherents makes the claim. General I don't know if this meets your criteria but : "the usages and customs of Freemasons have ever borne a close resemblance to those of ancient Egypt.." A quote from memory of a first degree charge in Co-M. Since "ever" is an absolute expression, that seems to indicate that Co-M see a relationship between Masonry and Egypt that either goes back to the origins of FM or the origins of Egyptian culture - whichever is the older. And since the ancient Egyptian culture appears in a very short space of time in highly developed form, it is likely to have derived from some prior source unknown to us. The Co-M charge may then be making a statement that extends back over an indefinitely long period. Cheers Russell
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Post by a on Apr 29, 2005 6:12:05 GMT
This post is not meant to be provocative, and I apologise now to those that it may upset.
It is not possible that what has become known today as comasonry is the true lineage of what are known as the Ancient Mysteries?
Could it be that male only Freemasonry was a later corruption, perhaps by those with money whose egos took over, or who were influenced by darker forcer?
Or more positively who were trying to keep the Mysteries alive at a time when women were undervalued and under-respected by men?
Perhaps male only Freemasonry has tried to emulate the mysteries butfailed to do so, in anything other than some higher/side orders where energies may be more refined and balanced?
Perhaps what we know today as comasonry was the resestablishment of the truth?
Perhaps the enternal stuggle between good and evil is being fought in the masonic world today?
Just some idle thoughts for a Friday morning.
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ruffashlar
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Post by ruffashlar on Apr 29, 2005 7:03:49 GMT
"It is not possible that what has become known today as comasonry is the true lineage of what are known as the Ancient Mysteries?"
None: we know that Co-Masonry originated in the Nineteenth Century as a "co-ed" hive-off from European single-sex Masonry.
"Could it be that male only Freemasonry was a later corruption, perhaps by those with money whose egos took over, or who were influenced by darker forces?"
None, again. Freemasonry has always been male-only as far back as records exist. Even in ancient Egypt, stonemasons were all men. Career choices have been divided along gender lines for thousands of years, although admittedly not always on the same principles, or even with the same divisions. nor has that always obtained in cultures other than the Europeans'. Unfortunately, European is what Freemasonry is, as far as origin is concerned.
"Or more positively who were trying to keep the Mysteries alive at a time when women were undervalued and under-respected by men?"
Women have been under-valued and under-respected by men at different times and in widely different cultures for a great number of reasons, but mostly because men have alaways been physically stronger. It is a physical fact that the areas for sexuality and for dominance cross in a man's brain, and hormonal release affects both. This is no excuse, merely a weary observation that men undervalue and mistreat women at their peril - but still they do it.
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Post by ingo on Apr 29, 2005 13:52:33 GMT
Ruff I am afraid that your answer is not totally right. In fact in 1893 the LDH was founded with the help of Bro. George Martin. But co-masonic lodges existed and are reported since 1722 in Poland, France and elsewhere. In fact members of the UGLoE Research lodges like PDM Bro. Neville B. Cryer presented documents which prove that male and female candidates were initiated into masonry before 1717!!
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Post by generalpike on Apr 29, 2005 21:01:16 GMT
It is not possible that what has become known today as comasonry is the true lineage of what are known as the Ancient Mysteries? Stewart, sorry your post is not as worrying as you may think and if you base your conclusion on Russell's quote, please read on. I don't know if this meets your criteria but : "the usages and customs of Freemasons have ever borne a close resemblance to those of ancient Egypt.." Russell no that doesn't meet my criteria "resemblance" means exactly that similar to but it doesn't mean derived from. In fact we in UGLE actually have a very similar form, here it is in full showing its proper relationship: The usages and customs among Freemasons have ever borne a near affinity to those of the ancient Egyptians. Their philosophers, unwilling to expose their mysteries to vulgar eyes, couched their systems of learning and polity under signs and hieroglyphical figures, which were communicated to their chief priests or Magi alone, who were bound by solemn oath to conceal them. One of the problems is that people either don't notice or don't care about the word "affinity". In effect this statement says that the AE's mystery system was similar but not the same. Unlike A&PRM&M which claims a direct descent. GP
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Post by generalpike on Apr 29, 2005 21:17:42 GMT
Ruff I am afraid that your answer is not totally right. In fact in 1893 the LDH was founded with the help of Bro. George Martin. But co-masonic lodges existed and are reported since 1722 in Poland, France and elsewhere. Well said Ingo. The origin of Adoptive Masonry is placed generally in the 17th Century and its author is named as the widow of Charles I of England, daughter of Henry IV and sister of Louis XIII of France. After the death of Charles she is said to have been proclaimed "the protectress of the children of the widow". She is said to have formed a society of women, to whom she communicated certain signs and passwords. In 1712, in Russia, Catherine the Czarina obtained from Peter the Great permission to found the Order of St Catherine, an Order of Knighthood for women only. In the 18th Century there were four Grand Mistresses of the Order of St John of Jerusalem which was an emanation of early Masonry. However, a definite year for Adoptive Masonry in France is 1775 when French women sought to form Lodges of Adoption. On 11th March 1775 the Lodge of Candour ( the first Adoptive Lodge) was formed under the GOoF. Adoptive Masonry sprang up in Holland in 1801. GP
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Post by a on Apr 29, 2005 21:23:51 GMT
Hi General
My post is not meant to be worrying. It is just a reflection of one of my brainstorms. While I do agree with many things that Russell says my views are independent.
Most of what I know about Freemasonry has come from within. Believe it or not it is up to you. I have then found confirmation of what I know from talking to people and listening in on forums such as this, and more recently from reading esoteric texts.
Now can I prove my statement to you, of course not, nor would I want to convince you of it. It is after all just a brainstorm. But it is a brainstorm which has that niggly gut feeling behind it.
It may help to remember that I view what we know today as Freemasonry (the theory part) as one of the guardians of the Ancient Mysteries (hence Divine Gift), which were, amongst other places, practiced in Ancient Egypt. But it is only the Ancient Egyptian bit that I am able to talk about, for that is the only bit that I can make sense of at this time.
Can I prove any of this to you - no. But that does not matter, as I am not selling anything. All I am doing is following my heart.
Just a pity that the Freemasons concerned never did get to put that golden capstone on the Great pyramid at the millenium. I guess that regardless of what was thought at the time, the time was just not quite right.
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Post by hollandr on Apr 30, 2005 3:19:45 GMT
Russell no that doesn't meet my criteria "resemblance" means exactly that similar to but it doesn't mean derived from. ...................... In effect this statement says that the AE's mystery system was similar but not the same. Unlike A&PRM&M which claims a direct descent. GP General I am not sure that claiming direct descent in Masonry is any better than claiming apostolic succession. But if it is of any use, I have seen a ancient Egyptian ritual through access to one of their aprons and my observation is that there are strong similarities although their ritual had the desired effects and ours often does not. But we all know how unreliable eye witnesses are, particularly when they are other than ourselves. Cheers Russell
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Post by a on Apr 30, 2005 7:37:27 GMT
Russell makes a very pertinent point here.
While I cannot see the way that Russell does, I can feel it in my bones so to speak.
I have absolutely no doubt that initiations in Ancient Egyptian days worked. Though as is often said nowadays to the effect "the ritual is all mumbo jumbo, a means of entry to the club." Well, I think that this does sadden many who know better.
I just wonder if the Lodges where such views have hold have any real, or even remote, idea of the sheer power that evades them. Mind you perhaps their members are not ready for the power, which may be why it evades them.
(note to those who understand this, I have used the word power, as this is a word that many recognise and think about).
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Post by hollandr on May 1, 2005 3:11:17 GMT
I just wonder if the Lodges where such views have hold have any real, or even remote, idea of the sheer power that evades them. Mind you perhaps their members are not ready for the power, which may be why it evades them. . Stewart Here is an elderly poem oft quoted: The Muses' Threnodie, by George Adamson, published in 1638: "For what we do presage is not in grosse, For we be brethren of the Rosie Crosse, We have the Mason Word and second sight, Things for to come we can foretell aright." Well what do we have now. We may have the Mason Word (or perhaps not) and our lodges do not claim second sight - even repudiate it perhaps. So is our Masonry descended from what George Adamson belonged to? Or perhaps it is better that we claim only to be stone masons trying to better themselves. Else we must consider if we have lost important powers since the 17th century. Cheers Russell
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ruffashlar
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Post by ruffashlar on May 1, 2005 4:49:47 GMT
My apologies to those better-acquainted with the history of Adoptive Masonry (charming term . My answer, suitably amended, however still reads:- " 'It is not possible that what has become known today as comasonry is the true lineage of what are known as the Ancient Mysteries?'
None: we know that Co-Masonry originated in the Seventeenth Century as an innovation upon European single-sex Masonry"
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Post by hollandr on May 1, 2005 5:25:16 GMT
None: we know that Co-Masonry originated in the Seventeenth Century as an innovation upon European single-sex Masonry [/i]"[/quote] Ruff The emphasis on direct human transfer of knowledge is a common approach amongst Masonic historians. We do of course know that much of breakthrough science occurred in dreams, day dreams and visions. For example, the structure of the benzene ring. the discovery of theory of special relativity and alternating current. Is it possible that spiritual investigations could proceed down the same path? If the answer is no (is evidence ever required for refutation of esoteric propositions?), then we must indeed look for human transmission and adhere to the current process of reproducing as closely as possible the ritual practised by the previous generation. On the other hand, it may be that the human race is not just physical bodies and may actually be capable of learning out of the body. If that were true, then the physical history of Masonry would be its least interesting tradition. As a side observation, over perhaps 1500 years, repeated slaughter of all the gnostics one could find appeared to make very little difference to the long term survival of those groups. Could it be that knowledge was leaping the generations in a non-physical way? I seem to recall some material science related to that recently - genetic variations leaping over a generation. That is the grandparents had the genetic variation but not the parents then the children did have it. What a nuisance. Makes one really question the point of having DNA. Cheers Russell
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Post by a on May 1, 2005 8:57:40 GMT
Ultimatley, the origins of Freemasonry is actually quite unimportant (though I know that many will disagree - even me if you are looking from an ultimate souce perspective). What is important, here and now, at this time, is that Freemasons, do what they say that they do, and be Freemasons.
Those who do will no doubt understand, or at least have a glimpse of an understanding, as to what an illuminati really is.
Those that don't - well - are simply missing out on so much which is within their grasp, if they could find the inner courage to reach out and grasp it.
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Post by whistler on May 29, 2005 2:59:22 GMT
Noticed the following in a Charge we read to a new EA at their initiation "We do not derive Freemasonry in the first instance from the building crafts of the middle ages, but from the Ancient Mysteries, once forming the heart of every great religion, in which the secrets which are the keys of the problems of life and death were given to the Initiated " Being grounded in such a Masonic tradition, may explain some of the problems I had on TFM
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staffs
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Post by staffs on May 29, 2005 8:01:15 GMT
Noticed the following in a Charge we read to a new EA at their initiation "We do not derive Freemasonry in the first instance from the building crafts of the middle ages, but from the Ancient Mysteries, once forming the heart of every great religion, in which the secrets which are the keys of the problems of life and death were given to the Initiated " Being grounded in such a Masonic tradition, may explain some of the problems I had on TFM Whistler Nothing then to do with that you like a good wind up then ?. You ? gently reeling in the line ? Never
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Post by a on May 29, 2005 8:01:23 GMT
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Post by Bondi on May 29, 2005 10:11:47 GMT
The origins of Freemasonry is a subject that often confuses me.
In essence Freemasonry uses, teaches and confirms some of the simplest virtues and ways of life, based on morals.
The simplistic nature of Freemasonry itself makes it possible to see resemblance in many groups and organisation both past and present who promote similar teaching, albeit under a different name.
I would agree with the previous statement of where Freemasonry is from as unimportant, and where it is going a higher place on the agenda.
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