giovanni
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Post by giovanni on May 16, 2005 8:20:55 GMT
As I previously told you, I am member of Rito Simbolico Italiano ("RSI"). It was created by Bro. Costantino Nigra, ambassador of the reign of Piemonte in Paris, in 1859. After the treaty of Plombieres, the Earl of Cavour, Prime Minister, did not trust any nore the AASR lodges of Turin, since they depended from Paris. The feature of this Rite is that there are no degrees. There is no initiation, since in our opinion initiations finish with the 3rd degree. We just promise to be loyal. We are therefore totally free to debate everything we wish. I submit the emblem of the Rite, which is, in my opinion, very meaningful. Any comments?
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Post by munkholt on May 16, 2005 9:00:55 GMT
The feature of this Rite is that there are no degrees. There is no initiation, since in our opinion initions finish with the 3rd degree. We just promise to be loyal. We are therefore totally free to debate everything we wish. Any comments? Thank you for introducing you order, Giovanni. I love to see the variety and similarities in Masonic tradition. Is it similar to the AA Scottish Rite in content? I mean, do your rituals cover the same ground, but in a more free-form manner? Or how does "no degrees" actually work? Very interesting, but a little hard for me to understand.
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giovanni
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Post by giovanni on May 16, 2005 9:35:45 GMT
Thanx, Tom, for your questions. No, it is not similar to Scottish Rite. I would point out that it is totally different. AASR has many chambers, each of one with specific philosophy and ritual. In Italy, the 4th Degree is the amplification of the 1st, the 9th of the 2nd, the 3rd is splitted between the 18th and the 30th. 31th, 32nd and 33rd are administrative degrees: no esoteric theme is therefore debated.
We are just "masters". We work with our ritual, which contains many references to the pitagorean harmony, then after we debate the proposed theme, which may be freely proposed by the Brethren and chosen by the President.
All offices are elective. I have been the President of the collegium (chamber) in Milan for 3 years and it was quite difficult. Having no degrees, it is frequented by the ripest Brethren, who are in search of light, not of regalia. In my collegium, we have two arabic Brethren and two italians who study and speak arabic... Sometimes, when I had to introduce the discussion after the speech, I was really embarassed.
Our group is very harmonized: harmony is symbolized by the fascis, or bundle, which consisted of 12 rods. More or less, it has the same meaning of the british Union Jack.
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ruffashlar
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Post by ruffashlar on May 16, 2005 17:37:51 GMT
harmony is symbolized by the fascis, or bundle, which consisted of 12 rods. More or less, it has the same meaning of the british Union Jack.
There is an innocent candour to your words which signifies that you may be unaware of how ambivalent such a comparison is.
You are doubtless aware that the Lictores of ancient Rome used to have the fascis as their emblem. In which capacity, its significance was not harmony, but the ability of the State to exercise violence upon the populace.
Similarly, the Union Jack (properly, the Union Flag) is not in the least an emblem of harmony, but of violent suppression: the red cross of St George, the English standard, is impressed above the Saltire of Scotland. This is in turn veined with the red saltire of the so-called cross of St Patrick, in fact the emblem of the hated Fitzgerald family who violently crushed much Irish dissent. Nor is there anywhere an emblem representing Wales, which in heraldic terms is regarded as being part of England. The blood-drenched history over which this flag has fluttered has even led to it's being nicknamed the Butcher's Apron.
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Post by taylorsman on May 17, 2005 4:15:13 GMT
I have read some anti British diatribes in my time, but that really is pushing it!
For the benefit of Stewart, this illustrates the British Freedom he mentions in his post. In the UK one can be this abusive and the most one will incur is the opprobrium of the likes of myself. In the USA insulting the Flag is a Crime. In some other countries the response is more "robust".
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bod
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Post by bod on May 17, 2005 5:58:05 GMT
Not too far from the truth tho' Steve.
The first step in the design of the Union Jack took place when the thrones of England and Scotland were united under King James 1 of England (King James IV of Scotland). It was decided that the new kingdom warranted a new flag. The first union flag appeared in 1606 when it was announced that the red on a white fieldcross of England had been joined with the white on a blue field saltire cross of Scotland. From the outset, the new symbol of unity was controversial. The English resented the fact that the white background of their cross had disappeared whilst the Scots took exception to the fact that the English red cross had been superimposed on their white cross. Furthermore, there was no distinctive Welsh representation because the principality of Wales had already been absorbed into England by the time the first version of the union flag was unfurled. The use of the union flag seems to have been restricted to maritime use until England and Scotland were formally united as Great Britain. With the union of Ireland and Great Britain on 1st January 1801 the flag was redesigned to incorporate the red saltire on a white field of Saint Patrick.
I would add that you are 'theoretically' guilty of the crime of 'lese majeste' if you were to incorrectly fly the union flag.
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giovanni
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Post by giovanni on May 17, 2005 7:37:59 GMT
Ruff,
thanks for your comments. In the course of my studies I always read that in origin the fascis with the ace therein contained had a twofold meaning: on the one side, the strength deriving from the union (12 rods as the 12 tribes that established Rome); on the other (the axe) the punishment for those who attempted to break this union. After, with the development of Rome, it symbolized the strength against the enemy.
In this perspective I thought that it expressed the same concept as the Union Flag: the union makes the strength.
I am fully aware that processes of unification are complicated and bloody-thirsty; nevertheless this doesn't affect the validity and the effectiveness of the symbol.
Bod: thanks for your explanations
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Post by ingo on May 17, 2005 7:43:43 GMT
Giovanni, your rite seems to be familiar with the ancient rite of the former german grand lodge "Freimauerbund zur aufgehenden Sonne" which was found 1905 and ended in 1933. This grand lodge also knew only one initiation grade - the 1°. Every mason stayed an entered apprentice searching for light for his whole life.
But as the GL desired acceptance by the GOdF, they established the full three "blue" grades. In 1930 a split off of this GL also formed a new blue grand lodge and the AASR for Germany.
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giovanni
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Post by giovanni on May 17, 2005 7:48:58 GMT
Ingo,
I was told about a german rite which seems very similar to mine. I will revert to you after due enquiries.
As far as light is concerned, it is symbolized by the eagle, which can look in the sun without offence to its eyes.
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ruffashlar
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Post by ruffashlar on May 18, 2005 0:41:05 GMT
Taylorsman's words: " I have read some anti British diatribes in my time, but that really is pushing it!"How could I be anti-British? When, being a Scot of Irish extraction, I am truly a Briton, not a descendant of the Saxon invaders ;D " In the USA insulting the Flag is a Crime." Indeed. Many other things have been crimes in America's history, such as drinking alcohol, interracial marriage, and voting if not white. But let's not think about historical facts, which do tend to upset people. Let's concentrate on things that are legal in America, like handgun ownership, and shooting people on your property. Well, what was I complaining about? A nation like that needs strict laws to keep its social misfits and Goddamn liberals in line. However, while that's all dandy, and you can go stoke the fires for me if you wish, Brethren , I'd like to educate sorry, remind you all that the Union Flag is not the official flag of the United Kingdom. Otherwise, why does this one here - www.alamoflag.com/alamoflag/Images/HandPaintedFlags/uk_royal_standard_full.jpg - always hang from the aerial on the roof of Mrs Saxe-Coburg-Gotha's council house? Get the facts right, folks.
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Post by taylorsman on May 18, 2005 1:20:11 GMT
That, Sir, is the Royal Standard, flown when the Monarch is in residence at various places including for the brief period she was present yesterday to perform the State Opening of Parliament, since the Houses of Parliament are in fact the Palace of Westminster. Whilst she was on the premises her Royal Standard flew in place of the Union Flag, which was replaced when she departed. Incidentally, when the Queen is resident at Buckingham Palace the Union Flag flies over that building. I make a point of looking whenver my taxi passes Buck House when I am in London. In any event it is not the National Flag, which is the Union Flag or Union Jack in common parlance, though as you say the 3 constituent parts of the Union have their own flags. If Scotland ever voted for Independence (highly unlikely given the recent Election results) then I assume England would use the Cross of St George. As to what would be flown in Ulster, that depends on which side of that great divide one is on, Red Hand or Southern Irish tricolour.
As to shooting someone who is illegally on one's premises for a purpose which is detrimental to one's safety or that of one's property I am totally behind the Yanks on this one, remembering the case of Farmer Martin, but as in most things in Life we will just have to agree to disagree on this matter.
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ruffashlar
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Post by ruffashlar on May 18, 2005 1:58:24 GMT
Excuse me if I differ. I think we actually agree on most things.
We agree that talking reasonably in the exchange of ideas is better than other (ah...) methods of discourse.
We agree that the freedom to exchange such ideas, so long as consistent offence and personal insult are not the direct intention, is a necessary liberty of a civilised society.
And we believe that Light will finally illuminate the entirety of humanity, and Harmony be established in the hearts of all.
So mote it be.
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giovanni
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Post by giovanni on May 18, 2005 13:51:56 GMT
The german Rite is that of Schroeder, set up by Bro. Friederich Ludwig Schroeder (1740-1816). It was a reaction to the excessive mysticism present in many german lodges.
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Post by whistler on May 18, 2005 20:49:00 GMT
Back to topic... Can you give an example of a subject you debate
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giovanni
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Post by giovanni on May 19, 2005 6:50:13 GMT
Willingly:
1) Tolerance: the West and Islam: the Pym Fortuyn case 2) The kabbalah's tree 3) Our ancestors: the Templars 4) Blessing the poor or fighting the poverty? 5) On Hierarchy
we alternate a "political" theme with an esoteric one.
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Post by ingo on May 19, 2005 9:17:44 GMT
Giovanni These themes are very interesting. We discuss familiar themes in our "Philosophic Café" together with Non-masons.
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Post by ingo on May 19, 2005 9:19:18 GMT
But Schroeder wrote rituals for 1-3 and even High grades, but you only work 3?
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giovanni
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Post by giovanni on May 19, 2005 12:11:47 GMT
But Schroeder wrote rituals for 1-3 and even High grades, but you only work 3? We work in 1-2-3 in the Craft, adopting the Craft rituals. In the Rite, we are all MM, of different lodges, and we work with our ritual. I think that RSI is similar to the English Royal Arch, which is intended to complete the 3rd degree.
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Post by munkholt on May 19, 2005 19:56:10 GMT
There are three lodges working the Schröder Rite in Denmark (they are regular, in amity with the GL) - one of them meets in the Freemason's Hall in Copenhagen, where my future lodge also meets -- I'll definetely go visit as soon as I get a chance!
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bod
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Post by bod on May 20, 2005 0:15:55 GMT
We work in 1-2-3 in the Craft, adopting the Craft rituals. In the Rite, we are all MM, of different lodges, and we work with our ritual. Thank you, that answers my question I was not clear if the rite was in addition to your craft structure or instead of. From the topics you posted only the first line is what I would say is 'political' - the others are all challenging, but they are also topics suited to freemasons, I think.
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