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Post by whistler on Jun 22, 2005 19:46:58 GMT
Wandering around the net I notice a little about the difference between "traditional and other types of Freemasonry. What a silly debate it becomes. Freemasonry is simply the vessel that carries wisdom, The origin and motives of the various human founders of the different types of Freemasonry can never really be known. The written constitutions and rules of each flavour are clearly influenced by the people of the time, Look at Anderson's Constitution, The original LDH and others - clearly reflections of the societies of the times..
Within each Freemason lodge there is a different esoteric flame that attracts different people depending on their own stage of evolution. Each lodge does not provide esoteric learning, instead it offers keys for Brn, to go out of the lodge and unlock their own doors.
To face the world knowing that one is an initiated Freemason, can give immense personal strength and confidence - confident that one has made a connection to wisdom that originated back in the mists of times.
I guess what I am saying that the whole Ethos of Freemasonry is too beautiful, too Magic, and too privileged, to attempt to belittle a Bro, just because their Freemasonry is different. I am always reminded that it is the GATOU that has been behind the pen that wrote our ritual.
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Post by a on Jun 22, 2005 21:14:59 GMT
Whistler
Could I add a personal observation to this.
The confidence that you mention can also be found in Freemasonry externally. Take my own experience as an example.
There was a time that I was very lost. Then slowly and surely I took steps to make sense of life. The Martial Arts helped enormously but so did Freemasonry, in many ways which may not be immediately obvious. As I learned through harsh experience to listen, recognise, believe and act upon my heart, I came to a stage in my own development where a lot of things made sense but I could not find any framework for it all to fit into.
Then one day after being given a reference (on Anubis as it happens) by a Freemason (Isen for those who know him) I checked it out, and soon found myself recognising myself in a book that is over a hundred years old. Part of this book is about Freemasonry. At that point a whole lot of crystalisation happened, and my confidence grew. More to the point the mixed feelings that I previously had about Freemasonry began to make sense.
Now the book itself is not that important, but it was perhaps 1/3 about Freemasonry, and it did light the way for me, in a way that was completely unexpected (even though I have only spend 1/2 hour or so reading it).
Now I could argue from this, that Freemasonry does a lot of work in the community that is not obvious. But I would have to say that in ones current lifetime you do not need to be an initiated Freemason to benefit from this confidence.
Thinking about it I am not sure that Isen was initiated himself when he sent me that reference. But I am extremely pleased that he did. So in case you are reading this Isen - thanks.
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Post by a on Jun 22, 2005 21:32:20 GMT
On rereading my post above I realised that by commenting on one point Whistler made, I have distratced away form his main point. Sorry. I guess what I am saying that the whole Ethos of Freemasonry is too beautiful, too Magic, and too privileged, to attempt to belittle a Bro, just because their Freemasonry is different. I am always reminded that it is the GATOU that has been behind the pen that wrote our ritual. Such belittling also in my opinion makes Freemasons look like children in a playground, trying to bully the smarter kids out of the way to cover personal insecurities. Harmony should prevail. Tolerance and all that. You know the theory. UGLEs definition of brotherly love comes to mind.
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Post by whistler on Jun 23, 2005 2:02:38 GMT
Ha Ha Stewart, you also miss the point - there is complete harmony and tolerance between true Freemasons ;D
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Post by a on Jun 23, 2005 6:43:59 GMT
Whistler
Quite possibly, after all I do miss many points. Though also perhaps not. I am just not as diplomatic as you. ;D
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Post by maat on Jun 28, 2005 6:06:01 GMT
Stewart -
I was quite interested to hear that a book someone gave you led you to Freemasonry. After 15 years in Masonry and listening to the stories of what led my companions to the Craft I am really seeing/believing that "when the student is ready - the teacher appears"...and in this case it is Freemasonry.
As the majority of our Lodge is female - I can assure you that the stories are fascinating and even more so when you consider that we are not in the phone book and people here believe that women cannot be Freemasons.
My journey started with a dream and then a sequence of remarkable 'coincidences' that ultimately led me to someone who quite literally looked over their shoulder and then whispered in my ear that I might like to become a Mason. Fifteen years later I could not be happier - not bad for a convent school girl who was 5 minutes away from becoming a nun. (That would have been a bad move - I like champagne too much!!)
Whistler - would you care to share your story?
Cheers Maat
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Post by a on Jun 28, 2005 6:42:16 GMT
Maat
It is actually more interesting than that (well I think that it is anyway). Apologies to those who have heard all of this before.
As a child in Scotland I was brought up in a family which has Freemasons in it, and Freemasonry was (and probably still is) a big part of the community. Though I did not realise this as a child. I just picked up bits and pieces. When I was 22 I did chat to one of my uncles about joining, but as I had university exams coming up I decided not to pursue matters until I graduated. But I then found myself graduating during a big recession and had to move to London to find the work that I wanted, so I never pursued this first chat up.
Time passes, and I hear lots of bad stuff about Freemasonry, corruption orientated mainly, and I decide that certainly in England, I would have nothing to do with Freemasonry. Back in Scotland I had heard about getting business through the lodge, but this was I was hearing at this stage was on a completely different level.
Now this disappointed me, though I did not really think about it, I just ignored Freemasonry, and got on with building my career. (At least one ex-masons has wondered how I did this but that is a separate consideration). Anyhow in 1990 I went of on holiday to EGypt and had a wonderful time. Nothing to note at the time, except for a couple of feelings that I did not really think about at the time. One was inside the Great Pyramid, the other was in Karnak, and arguably/possibly a third in the West Bank of Luxor.
This holiday sent me off on a spree of research, thought, reflection, reading, etc, that covered many many areas, and as the years passed my feelings for Freemasonry grew, but I could not understand them, nor put them into any framework or perspective. Also at this time about all that I was hearing about Freemasonry from contacts was negative, either corruption implied, or that "I would never be allowed to join." "Why would I never be allowed to join?" I often wondered. What was so "special" about me that I would never be allowed?
Anyhow there came to a point where I felt that Freemasonry was letting me down. No other way to put it. Difficult to explain. I was full of emotions for Freemaosnry and they were conflicting. ON the one hand Freemaosnry was still close to my heart, but the Freemasonry that I was told existed, and which I could sometimes see, and which on occassion I was told was positively being used against me, did not align with what I knew in my heart. It was somewhat confusing and heart wrenching.
Then came the day that I was chatting with Isen about ancient Egypt. And he found a web reference on Anubis and gave it to me. You know this part of the story. I sat there in the library looking at this old book and saw myself,. Suddenly I had the framework that I was looking for. I knew.
As time passed, and I began to assimilate this. And understanding came. Through this process I have had some believability issues, and I have taken my time to ensure that I am not misunderstanding.
While a little out of sequence, you may also be interested to know that I once found myway to a meeting with a comasonic Grand Master, who listened to me for hours. He never said much. But I just opened my heart to him in way that I had never done before, and again more issues fell into place as my heart lifted. And since then there have been other specific events which have on reflection been key points that have helped me take another step.
As I have travelled from being very lost, to understanding, and being asked to help on occassions, an awful lot has com eto make sense to me. Though I accept that I still have much to learn.
My only problem now is that my view of Freemasonry is somewhat unusual. It is most easily described as being like a father child relationship. Though I realise that many Freemasons feel rather uncomfortable with this.
It will be interesting to see how I settle in once I do petition again (asuming that I am accepted this time). (It is interesting to note that I was told that I would never be allowed to join [which is a strange thing to actually tell someone] and was in deed some years later rejected by an UGLE lodge).
As I say apologies to those who have heard all of this before.
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bod
Member
UGLE - MM (London), MMM RAM(Middx), OSM (London)
Posts: 1,296
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Post by bod on Jun 28, 2005 6:56:54 GMT
Ah once more conjecture and half the story makes things appear far more dramatic than they actually are. You make no mention of who these people were who were feeding you the line about masonic corruption - I somehow doubt any of them have any personal experience of freemasonry and are speaking from what they have heard or surmised. I likelwise don't know who told you you wouldn't be allowed to join - as has been mentioned on several occasions to you , in public, there are lodges and members who would be happy to accept you as a candidate, you are the one who has decided that UGLE freemasonry is not for you - however that does not preclude you from joining one of the other fraternities, so why haven't you?
I am not surprised you felt something in Egypt - there are similar resonances from all old buildings, particularly those that inspire awe and reverance, and even more so with those that have been used for spiritual purposes.
As I said elsewhere, and you have adequately proved in this thread, you take some subjects and comments by individuals as gospel - and turn the searching light of enquiry on those who disagree - if only that searchlight was used with equal ferocity to all sides of the argument.
As a personal comment I feel you would be very disappointed by UGLE freemasonry, it's structure and format would not give you the freedom you seem to need to explore your ideas, whether any organised freemasonry would suit you or not is something you have to ultimately decide.
And if you are the parent that makes you very old indeed........
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Post by a on Jun 28, 2005 7:31:04 GMT
Bod I could nit pick your post, but that would achieve little. But let me ask you to reflect on how you can say this you are the one who has decided that UGLE freemasonry is not for you How do you know what I have decided? You are placing your opinions and trying to express them as mine. Please do not do that.
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bod
Member
UGLE - MM (London), MMM RAM(Middx), OSM (London)
Posts: 1,296
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Post by bod on Jun 28, 2005 7:53:01 GMT
Cobblers, Stewart - over the last three and a bit years you have repeatedly made the comment yourself that you feel that UGLE might not be for you - and please don't ask for the source postings, as I can't be arsed to go and find them. You have said it, and repeated it, don't presume that I am making assumptions about you - you couldn't be further from the truth if you believed the moon was made of green cheese.
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Post by a on Jun 28, 2005 8:00:07 GMT
Bod
I think that you need to take a deep breath and reflect a little here.
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Post by sid on Jun 28, 2005 13:55:40 GMT
Hi Stewart, and forum, Maat Anyhow in 1990 I went of on holiday to EGypt and had a wonderful time. Nothing to note at the time, except for a couple of feelings that I did not really think about at the time. One was inside the Great Pyramid, the other was in Karnak, and arguably/possibly a third in the West Bank of Luxor. This holiday sent me off on a spree of research, thought, reflection, reading, etc, that covered many many areas, and as the years passed my feelings for Freemasonry grew, ... Then came the day that I was chatting with Isen about ancient Egypt. And he found a web reference on Anubis and gave it to me. You know this part of the story. I sat there in the library looking at this old book and saw myself,. Suddenly I had the framework that I was looking for. I knew. For those of you interested in Egypt etc., you may find the following books of interest: 1. "Winged Pharaoh" etc., by Joan Grant 2. Books by Isha Schwaller de Lubicz & R.A. Schwaller de Lubicz 3. Books by E.A. Wallis Budge 4. Books by James H. Breasted 5. "The Symbolic Prophecy of the Great Pyramid" by H. Spencer Lewis (AMORC) 6. "Zenia the Vestal" by Margaret B. Peeke (husband was a Mason (USA) of some renown) There are many more.
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Post by a on Jun 28, 2005 14:42:33 GMT
Hi Sid
Thank you for the recommendations which I will add to my reading list. Though it will take me some time to get around to them. I own one book by Budge, but the rest are new to me. They do however sound facinating.
The AMORC book in particular interests me, as there clearly (to me anyway) much more to the Great Pyramid than meets the eye. I felt remarkably at home in there. I could argue a case that I was initiated in there (as [for those this is not obvious to] it was from that specific point in time that I went on a journey of discovery which led to to my current state of knowledge, taking me from physical to spiritual). Not forgetting bringing me back to the door of Freemasonry.
Actually it is interesting in this regard that I have had Freemasons tell me that the pyramids have nothing whatsoever to do with Freemasonry, and others tell me that when I return the Masonic association will be crystal clear to me. It will be interesting to see how I feel when I do return. Hopefully someday in the not too distant future.
It would be nice to see the capstone replaced, pity that it did not happen at the Millenium. I guess that the time was just not quite right.
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Post by taylorsman on Jun 28, 2005 17:11:23 GMT
Stewart. I will be more polite and diplomatic than Bod, but will also say that "UGLE Freemasonry is NOT for you!".
I have met and spoken to you often, I read your posts, (well apart from all the gooey UN One World chaff which now bores me and I simply ignore), and from what I know of UGLE at Craft and RA Level, the people who are in it, the way it works , believe me Brother, you would NOT be happy in it nor it with you. There are too many "Social Clubbers" for your likeing and, although the vast Majority of Members are really nice chaps, there are a few who are egotists, users, bullies both emotional and physical. There are those who detest the Esoteric types and will go out of their way to "haze" them, (I simply ignore these fools and leave them to their boring Ladies Nights etc which I don't attend), and concern myself far more with the Higher Degrees these days.
Now although you are a big chap and into the Martial Arts you come across to me as a sensitive type. That is no fault, even from a hard bitten insular individualist such as myself, but I can see that you would encounter some robust types who would be most harsh and personal in the criticisms.
I would also say that you would not like the way that most UGLE Lodges are long on Social Activities and Charity Fund Raising and may even perform a good Ritual, but are short on the Philosophical aspects and are "Speculative" in name only.
Maybe RGLE would be more suitable for you?, or as I have said before Co-masonry as you consider the female aspects to be so important to Freemasonry and you simply wont get that in UGLE Freemasonry, well not unless you count a "White Table" or a "Ladies Night".
Stewart, you have said that you are already a Mason in your heart, Fine, a Baptism of Desire as the Churchmen say . I feel you should now join a Masonic Body but NOT UGLE. Whether you take this advice or not is up to you but at least consider it.
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Post by a on Jun 28, 2005 18:05:57 GMT
Taylorsman, as you know I take all advice on board, and I do value your guidance. Stewart. I will be more polite and diplomatic than Bod, but will also say that "UGLE Freemasonry is NOT for you!". I have heard this. Pity I know I can only wonder at how much damage these men have caused, and are causing. The trouble is that such people in life generally tend to bully those who chose to clean the house, so they tend to be left to get on with it. I have encountered them previously. Indeed this is true. I have heard this. Sums it up really. I do enjoy the Agapes that is for sure. And watching Freemasons from around the world come together is a wonderful sight. As I have said before in an ideal world I would like to join all fraternities, not so much to participate but to help knit them together. Indeed comasonry has a strong pull, and I may well settle down there one day. I always consider your advice. But joining is not the issue. The issue is given what I now know, what I am going to do with that knowledge? It is nice to be able to give back. And just now I am able to give back quite a bit, though as it is not all done on forums you probably miss a good part of it. There will come a time when I will settle down, either where I can be of most use, or failing that where I feel most comfortable, but just now I am considering my options as they say. But fear not for me to join UGLE now would take Mr Morrow to meet with me to discuss a few issues (otherwise I would not be likely to settle down properly), and as he does not appear to want to meet with me, me joining UGLE is somewhat unlikely at this time. You are right though Taylorsman, while I am aware of Lodges and Freemasons in UGLE where I could settle in quite well, these are relatively few and far between. This however is not a problem.
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Post by maat on Jun 29, 2005 0:04:04 GMT
Dear Stewart
Thank you for sharing your story with me. I do agree with the suggestion that you might be more suited to Co-Masonry than UGLE. I am a Co-Mason and my husband is a non esoteric UGLE Mason. It makes for some interesting conversations (or not). Co-Masonry concentrates on the Inner Work of the Mason much more that what I can see happening in UGLE - though I must say the Outer work that they do is awe inspiring.
Dare I say - that you have only knocked once?! Each person must come of their own will and accord so I am not going to encourage you to knock again - that is something you must do for yourself and it must come from the heart. To become a true Freemason in every sense of the word takes a lot of courage and a lifetime of committment.
I would not be at all surprised if you aren't a fine Mark Mason sooner or later.
Love, Light & Laughter. Life is just a game.
Maat
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Post by a on Jun 29, 2005 6:33:06 GMT
Maat If it is ok I will draw upon a few of your points as this will help answer questions that I know some have. Co-Masonry concentrates on the Inner Work of the Mason much more that what I can see happening in UGLE - though I must say the Outer work that they do is awe inspiring. It took me quite a while to pass by the barrier of the term "Freemasonry" to see this distinction. Yes, and with good reason. It has taken me years of lessons to learn to listen to my heart, to recognise what it is saying, to believe it, and to act upon it. And my heart tells me that I will join when the time is right, but the time is not yet just quite right. Hence I have not asked again. Just now I am happy doing what little I can here and there helping push and prod and helping where asked. To me, just now, joining is not really a big issue, as I already get so much out of Freemasonry and I think give Freemasonry so much back. Indeed, see above. My heart is not saying no, only "be patient". Tell me about it, it is not easy. Though it is also the easiest thing around. Funny duality. Thank you, though I am not completely sure what Mark Masonry involves, beyond what I have read on forums. One day I may find out. Indeed, or is that a prison? Feels like it sometimes. Actually Maat I will say that I am perhaps a little bit further along in my understanding than is indicated above, but I do tend to keep it down to assist understanding. But I suspect that you may know that.
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Post by a on Jun 29, 2005 22:08:03 GMT
Sid
I have just spent a little time exploring the web in relation to some of the books that you mention above. Thank you for guiding me here.
Should be an interesting few years ahead.
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