ruffashlar
Member
Lodge Milncroft No. 1515 (GLoS), Govanhill Royal Arch Chapter 523 (S.G.R.A.C.S.)
Posts: 2,184
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Post by ruffashlar on Jul 13, 2005 4:04:26 GMT
You should get out more.
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Post by maat on Jul 13, 2005 23:57:21 GMT
Russell - I really enjoyed your story (ruffashlar - you are a naughty boy ) I particularly liked the bit about knocking with the LH because the other was busy steering the Ark of Earth. The P..L... makes sense with my previous analogy also. The Plan is made by the Spirit before it descends through the Soul (the Mark) and then to our reality (the second) where we have to actually execute the Plan. Great stuff! Imagine this - Russell and ruffashlar as neighbours - I'd like to see that ;D
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Post by maat on Jul 14, 2005 0:14:05 GMT
PS to above....
Russell - your idea of descent rather that initiation could be confirmed by the order of the procession?!
Maat
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Post by hollandr on Jul 14, 2005 1:19:54 GMT
Maat
I meant that unlike other degrees in Co-Masonry, there is no use of the sword by the Master to initiate the candidate in RAM. This strikes me as very significant. I deduce from that and inner contact with the "fish people" that there is a bloodline by right aspect. (Is the king of the fish people the fisher king of grail legends?)
The "male" craft appears to make less use of swords as energy devices to be applied to the candidate.
Cheers
Russell
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Post by maat on Jul 14, 2005 23:20:40 GMT
Sounds fishy to me... Maat
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ruffashlar
Member
Lodge Milncroft No. 1515 (GLoS), Govanhill Royal Arch Chapter 523 (S.G.R.A.C.S.)
Posts: 2,184
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Post by ruffashlar on Jul 15, 2005 2:21:24 GMT
Hey, like uh phnglui mglwnafh Cthulhu Rlyeh waghnagl fhtagn, dudes
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phil
Member
Just me all at sea
Posts: 209
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Post by phil on Jul 15, 2005 6:44:18 GMT
Russel said: Quote: The "male" craft appears to make less use of swords as energy devices to be applied to the candidate. Unquote. (how do you guys do that automatically?)
In Dutch lodges, swords are used a lot. The WM and his two Warden have swords and a visiting master or grand officer is always welcomed under a guard of 5 or 7 raised swords.
The Dutch ritual is based on the French rituals. The French always considered the carrying of a sword as the mark of a "Free gentleman". So, really it started as asocial/political demonstration.
This brings me back to one of my favourite cautions to all students of Freemasonry. There may be symbols in the rituals (I'm absolutely sure there are) or we may simply find symbols which were not really intended as such. What came first, the symbol or the ritual?
We symbolists tend to find symbols in vertually anything. I was taught to be cautious. (big grin).
S&FG
Phil.
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giovanni
Member
odi profanum vulgus, et arceo
Posts: 2,627
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Post by giovanni on Jul 15, 2005 9:47:09 GMT
In Italy, the sword of the WM has a particular shape: that of a serpentine, like a kriss, the Malaysian poniard.
It is not intended as weapon, but, rather, as a vehicle of light.
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Post by hollandr on Jul 16, 2005 4:02:10 GMT
Giovanni
What sort of effect does a curved sword have on the light flow?
Russell
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Post by munkholt on Jul 16, 2005 7:14:09 GMT
I would guess the description is "wavy" rather than "curved" - makes sense working with light-waves.
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giovanni
Member
odi profanum vulgus, et arceo
Posts: 2,627
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Post by giovanni on Jul 16, 2005 7:51:02 GMT
I think that the wavy - thanks, Munkholt! - sword works like an alembic: it purifies what passes through, in this case the light, to ensure that it is the purest as far as possible.
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Post by maat on Aug 9, 2005 0:01:57 GMT
Phil you stated and asked.
"There may be symbols in the rituals (I'm absolutely sure there are) or we may simply find symbols which were not really intended as such. What came first, the symbol or the ritual?
We symbolists tend to find symbols in virtually anything. I was taught to be cautious. (big grin)."
Symbols first - Ritual second! (Unified human field theory)
Anything we interpret as symbolic is a reflection of what is going on in our mind/Mind. So even if we see a symbol that no-one else does it does not make it invalid for the observer. This is why dreams are so potent and such a good ally in life's journey. Dreams are the easiest way for our super-conscious to "talk" to us about what is going on at other levels of consciousness and it talks to us in symbols.
It is my belief that only the observer can correctly interpret the symbol for themselves - for ALL symbols have many layers of meaning and those very varied.
Think of a Nautilus shell - what could that symbolise? An ant? A question mark - (now thats a good one!)
Cheers Maat
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phil
Member
Just me all at sea
Posts: 209
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Post by phil on Aug 9, 2005 9:01:20 GMT
I fully agree with you Maat and thank you for picking up this point.
The chicken-and-egg (which came first?) question is a favourite topic of mine when refering to those good intending brethren that tend to (dare I say) dictate to others what symbols are to be found where and how they should be interpreted. There are unfortunately so many brethren who tend to be fixed in their own unalterable interpretation of symbolism and that can be very misleading for the so-called younger brethren trying to make Freemasonry part of themselves.
Whenever I present a lecture on symbolism I always begin with the words "Don't believe anything I say!". After that I can give my explanantions and possible alternatives without imposing restrictions of thought on others and they are further encouraged to seek their own interpretations. After all, in my opinion at least, that is what symbolism is all about; seeking your own interpretations of the meanings so that they may be of benefit to you.
As you quite rightly say, the only true interpretation of a symbols, whether it was initially intended to be a symbol in the first place or not, is the observer. The master seeks his own path.
Let us all ponder the "question mark".
S&FG
Phil.
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Post by maat on Aug 9, 2005 22:47:56 GMT
"Whenever I present a lecture on symbolism I always begin with the words "Don't believe anything I say!". After that I can give my explanations and possible alternatives without imposing restrictions of thought on others and they are further encouraged to seek their own interpretations. After all, in my opinion at least, that is what symbolism is all about; seeking your own interpretations of the meanings so that they may be of benefit to you."
Phil - that is EXACTLY what I say to the Brn and most especially to the EA's!
- there is no Dogma in Freemasonry - that is part of its brilliance.
Getting back to symbols - I see you are a man of the sea - you may appreciate what Oliver Wendell Holmes thought the Nautilus symbolised reincarnation as the means for the evolution and perfection of the Soul - that Perfect Man then being free ... (from further lessons in life as we know it).
Year after year beheld the silent toil That spread his lustrous coil; Still, as the spiral grew, He left the past year's dwelling for the new, Stole with soft step its shining archway through, Built up its idle door, Stretched in his last-found home, and knew the old no more.
Thanks for the heavenly message brought by thee, Child of the wandering sea, Cast from her lap, forlorn! From thy dead lips a clearer note is born Than ever Triton blew from wreathed horn! While on mine ear it rings, Through the deep caves of thought I hear a voice that sings:-
Build thee more stately mansions, O my soul, As the swift seasons roll! Leave thy low-vault past! Let each new temple, nobler than the last, Shut thee from heaven with a dome more vast, Till thou at length art free, Leaving thine outgrown shell by life's unresting sea!
.......OW Holmes - just must have been a mason?!
Maat
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Post by maat on Aug 9, 2005 22:58:06 GMT
Phil said - Let us all ponder the "question mark".
Maybe this would be a nice little exercise for anyone that wants to give it a go.... there is no 'right answer' - just ponder the shape of the question mark and see what pops to mind as to why it might have been fashioned that way. You may come up with some very interesting ideas...
Will give you my impressions in a day or two.
Maat
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ricardo
Member
Australia
Posts: 161
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Post by ricardo on Aug 12, 2005 9:54:17 GMT
In Italy, the sword of the WM has a particular shape: that of a serpentine, like a kriss, the Malaysian poniard. It is not intended as weapon, but, rather, as a vehicle of light. Hmmm, very interesting... in my Mother Lodge the Tyler's sword had a wavy blade - the Brother who made it (my proposer) said it represented the sword placed at the entrance to the Garden of Eden. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life. Genesis 3:24
And take ... the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: Eph.6:17
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Post by kizzy on Aug 12, 2005 10:31:57 GMT
I have had my attention as a Moderator directed to the Symbols sub discussion on this thread. After pondering the matter I will not move the postings as I feel they are relevant and do not diverge from the main theme of the thread.
Unlike some other Fora I could mention we do not have a rigid "Relevance Police" nor do we rush to lock threads.
Sorry to disappoint the poster who mentioned this, but in this case NFA.
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Post by maat on Aug 14, 2005 23:00:18 GMT
Not disappointed at all. But the suggestion was that "copies" of informative 'crossed threads' could be posted, as such, in relevant areas....i e they would then appear in 'two' places.
Maat.
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giovanni
Member
odi profanum vulgus, et arceo
Posts: 2,627
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Post by giovanni on Sept 5, 2005 7:33:20 GMT
Let me come back to the topic.
In Italy, there two pillars, besides the door: Boaz and Jakin.
Boaz is placed in the west, at the right seeing it from the throne of the WM; Jakin at the left.
one means strong and the other stable
I argue that we need to be strong but also perseverant: fires of straw do not help us to ameliorate ourselves and the others.
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Post by maat on Sept 6, 2005 3:37:52 GMT
Giovanni Have you ever thought of the Two Pillars in connection to The Twelve Labors of Hercules? Quite an interesting read... Alice Bailey & Djwhal Khul THE LABORS OF HERCULES "The Presiding One looked forth upon the sons of men, who are the Sons of God. He saw their light and where they stood upon the Way which leads back to the Heart of God. The Way sweeps in a circle through the twelve great Gates, and, cycle after cycle, the Gates are opened and the Gates are shut. The Sons of God, who are the sons of men, march on. Dim is the light at first. Selfish the trend of human aspiration, and dark the deeds resultant. Slowly men learn and, in learning, pass between the PILLARS OF THE GATES time and again. Dull is the understanding but in the Halls of Discipline, found in each section of the circle's cosmic sweep, the truth is slowly grasped; the needed lesson learnt; the nature purified and taught until the Cross is seen - that fixed and waiting Cross which crucifies the sons of men, stretched out on the Crosses of those who serve and save. From out the mass of men, one man stood forth in ancient days and caught the great presiding Elder's watching eye, he who eternally presides within the Council Chamber of the Lord. He turned to one who stood, close at his hand, and said: "Who is that soul upon the Way of life, whose light can now be dimly seen?" Quickly the answer came: "That is the soul who, on the Way of life, experiences and seeks the clear light which shines from the High Place." Entire Free Book in link below... laluni.helloyou.ws/netnews/bk/hercules/toc.htmlMaat
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