giovanni
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odi profanum vulgus, et arceo
Posts: 2,627
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Post by giovanni on Jul 21, 2005 8:12:17 GMT
In Italy, but also in other continental lodges, Entered Apprentices must be silent. They cannot speak, nor ask questions. It is an heritage of the Pythagorean tradition. They can speak only if requested by the WM. I don't consider emergency situations, obviously. Silence plays a basic role in structuring the initiate's mentality. I would ask you which is your practice and, possibly, your opinion on the subject.
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Post by sid on Jul 21, 2005 9:15:26 GMT
"If that which you want to say is not nicer than silence, then don't say it."
Something like that.
I believe it's an old saying of the Sufi
Not an easy thing to do.
Yes, I'm sure there is great power also in Silence as well.
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Post by taylorsman on Jul 21, 2005 9:35:08 GMT
There is no such rule in an UGLE Craft Lodge but the matter would not often arise anyway. An EA could hold an Office such as IG, (I think Lee did), and would then answer to that Office at the Opening, if that was the custom of his Lodge, as some have the Wardens do so at the Opening and not the Office Holders themselves. He would also speak his part in the Ritual, at least for an Initiation in his case. At the Third Rising he could stand, salute the WM, and say something if it was relevant but this seldom happens and as I have said many times there is very seldom any "discussion" etc in an UGLE Craft Lodge unlike some other Constitutions, more's the pity. This will usually only occur if a Lecture or Paper has been presented if the Lodge has not worked a Degree at that Meeting and the presenter is happy to take Questions, or if some matter such as an Increase in Fees has been discussed by the Lodge Committee but needs to be ratified by the Lodge in full and Brethren wish to debate the matter.
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Post by munkholt on Jul 21, 2005 9:59:13 GMT
We have Silence here as well. And with a year between each degree, I have two quiet years ahead of me! Until I join, it is a little bit abstract, and I can't really say how it will play out. But I realise how it is, and I am fine with it. The first year will be busy, just listening from the sideline, seeing other lodges working the ritual, meeting people, finding the library, reading, learning the traditions etc. I knew how it would be when I joined up, and frankly the stiff traditions were part of my motivation.
The problem for me lies with it being called a Privilige. If I had a choice in the matter, fine, but I don't, so i'ts a rule, not a privelige. The Order should just tell it like it is, and give a good reason why, even if it's just "that's how it has always been". More honest, imo. Ideally, someone will guide the new Apprentice and help him use the time in Silence for reflection and learning.
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giovanni
Member
odi profanum vulgus, et arceo
Posts: 2,627
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Post by giovanni on Jul 21, 2005 14:46:19 GMT
The problem for me lies with it being called a Privilige. If I had a choice in the matter, fine, but I don't, so i'ts a rule, not a privelige. The Order should just tell it like it is, and give a good reason why, even if it's just "that's how it has always been". More honest, imo. Ideally, someone will guide the new Apprentice and help him use the time in Silence for reflection and learning. I guess you are referring to Silence as a privilege. In the affirmative, YES, it's the greatest privilege that Freemasonry may offer to his members. They learn how to hear their inner; they are obliged to ponder what is said by others; they cannot react impulsively so they will learn tolerance, not in its political sense, obviously, but rather in the masonic one: A younger Brother shall be instructed in working, to prevent spoiling the Materials for want of Judgment, and for increasing and continuing of brotherly love.
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Post by sid on Jul 21, 2005 15:21:55 GMT
Greetings, The problem for me lies with it being called a Privilege. If I had a choice in the matter, fine, but I don't, so it's a rule, not a privilege. The Order should just tell it like it is, and give a good reason why, even if it's just "that's how it has always been". More honest, imo. Ideally, someone will guide the new Apprentice and help him use the time in Silence for reflection and learning. May I suggest that Silence is a Privilege because it is a very important and subtle form of personal Instruction, that can only be done in this way. I allows the inner part become more attuned with the spiritual quality of the process between the new candidate (the observer) and what is taking place in Ritual (that which is being observed). Best I can do.
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Post by munkholt on Jul 21, 2005 16:48:09 GMT
Giovanni, Sid ... For the reasons you state, I can understand and agree that I should "feel priviliged", but without a choice in the matter I would still ague that it's not strictly "a privilige". It will also be interesting to see if my seniors in the lodge are as aware of the benefits and able to instruct the learning as you are.
No matter, it's splitting hairs – like I said, I think the idea makes sense and I'm all for it.
edit: looking in dictionaries ... I have to admit that I am wrong: It is a privilege in the sense that the EA/FC has a special status that means he will never be asked to speak (and he can benefit from the silence). But in my understanding of the word, it should also entitle a freedom to decline, otherwise it would be more of an obligation.
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ruffashlar
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Lodge Milncroft No. 1515 (GLoS), Govanhill Royal Arch Chapter 523 (S.G.R.A.C.S.)
Posts: 2,184
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Post by ruffashlar on Jul 21, 2005 20:12:54 GMT
" If that which you want to say is not nicer than silence, then don't say it." Or as I always say, "If you can't say something nice, shut the f*** up!" ;D
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giovanni
Member
odi profanum vulgus, et arceo
Posts: 2,627
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Post by giovanni on Jul 21, 2005 21:49:21 GMT
Munkholt.
No problem for your masonic education: here we are ready to teach.
The man who teaches gains more wisdom
(Sicilian proverb)
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Post by Liberty on Jul 22, 2005 0:30:30 GMT
Greetings,
In many US Lodges we conduct our work in the MM which obviously precludes an EA or FC from being present unless he is there to observe a degree that he has been through. Now, it is not a rule that we conduct our business in the MM but appears to have become custom. Your question concerning "silence" is prompting me to research why this has become our custom. Often times a EA or FC can come to the Lodge and will set in another room with a MM who will work with the Bro. on his cathecism then the Lodge will "drop" to the approiate degree and the Brother will be let in for the closing.
When I became a MM I was silent for quite some time and observed the workings of the Lodge and protocal before I became confident enough to address the WM in any discussion of Lodge business so I think the rule on "silence " that you have on the continent is probably prudent and indeed a privilige.
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Post by taylorsman on Jul 22, 2005 6:13:00 GMT
Silence can indeed be Golden in this very noisy age, but I would not call it a "privilege" however to have silence imposed upon one. This is another example of the modern trend of "weasel words" where expressions which at first view seem to imply something beneficial, or an improvement , when examined closely are usually the exact opposite. Thus we have Economic "Reforms" which usually mean that Jobs are lost, Benefits reduced, and Services diminished, or "Liberalisation" which can have similar effects to the detriment of the man in the street, or even being given more "Choice" which often means that a simple system which worked quite well is replaced by several conflicting and disjointed ones which are difficult to work with , not as effective and more expensive, eg the Railways here in the UK since they were Privatised. I do wish that the "Powers that Be" would say what they mean and mean what they say instead of indulging in double-talk but that is a forlorn hope.
So I am glad to say that such a "privilege" is not given to the EA or FC in English Freemasonry but as I have said the opportunity for them to speak in Lodge doesn't really exist, UGLE Craft Lodges are not Debating Societies or Discussion Groups, not even Masonic ones.
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Post by ingo on Jul 22, 2005 7:06:16 GMT
In co-masonic lodges if the rituals are from LDH or referr to LDH-rituals, the EA has to be silent in the temple, too. The FC is allowed to greet officially from his lodge, the EA is not.
We say: A EA has to look inside, a FC has to look around and a MM has to look above.
A EA has the duty to ask questions, but not in the temple, but outside, where the instructions are held for his grade. The same is for the FC.
Neither the EA nor the FC can hold any office of the five-pointed star - VM, SW, JW, MC, Orator
A EA is not allowed to travel on his own. A FC has to travel. If he does not, he cannot become a MM. He did not look around.
The first duty and privilege of our EAs is to learn. You are just able to learn if you listen to the ritual without acting. And you learn if you listen, try to understand And if you do not understand what yopu see and hear, ask questions outside the temple.
Silence is very important for the development of EAs.
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