|
Post by hollandr on Feb 10, 2007 9:18:23 GMT
In my current lodge, very few of us square the lodge.
Is squaring an irrelevant residual from 18th Century lodges where brethren stepped around a painted canvas tracing board upon the floor?
Or is there some more important meaning or function?
Cheers
Russell
|
|
|
Post by lihin on Feb 10, 2007 12:16:17 GMT
Greetings Bro. Russell, Important is a relative term. However, here in Central and Western Europe, in AASR, French and Schroeder Rites and probably others, squaring the Lodge is well observed by everyone. Wardens occasionally admonish those who forget to do so. The rectangular forms found so often in FM symbolism, the Square to mention one, obviously have their significations. The Lodge has a rectangular base form, not a circle or an oval. Ritually squaring the Lodge impresses such symbolism upon the Brethern. Generally, in view of the current Iron or Dark Age ( Kali Yuga) of the decending cycle, the 18th century more probably had it right than the 20th. You and other Brethern are certainly familiar with several source works on FM symbolics for more details. In French language FM, one of the most frequently used works is Mme Irène Mainguy's: La symbolique maçonnique du troisième millénaire[/url]
|
|
imakegarb
Member
One wee, sleeket, cowran, tim'rous beastie
Posts: 3,573
|
Post by imakegarb on Feb 10, 2007 12:48:20 GMT
In my lodge, and all those in my jurisdiction I've attended so far (including GL), we square the lodge. I'm an EA, with scads to learn and I'm not sure, yet, of the function of squaring the lodge. But I instinctively feel glad we do
|
|
giovanni
Member
odi profanum vulgus, et arceo
Posts: 2,627
|
Post by giovanni on Feb 10, 2007 13:23:33 GMT
|
|
giovanni
Member
odi profanum vulgus, et arceo
Posts: 2,627
|
Post by giovanni on Feb 10, 2007 20:50:25 GMT
I read and enjoyed Irene Manguy's book. A very insightful one.
It's a pity it has not yet been translated into English.
|
|
|
Post by keith on Feb 11, 2007 2:57:12 GMT
It was, I believe, originally done when there was a floor cloth which people didn't want to get dirty or wear out unnecessarily. It also makes for tidiness and dignity of movement, adding to the decorum of the proceedings. A mundane reason I admit but reasonable in the circumstances, No doubt subsequent imaginative Brethren would dream up alternative reasons for what is essentially merely a common sense practice.
I don't think it should be indulged in to an extravagant or exaggerated degree which could lead to artificiality
|
|
|
Post by lihin on Feb 11, 2007 7:34:10 GMT
Greetings Fratello Giovanni, Greetings Sisters and Brethern, Bro. Giovanni, your original post linked to merits careful reading and reflection. It may be interesting to know that the Traditional French Rite, in contrast to e.g. the A.A.S.R., still practices Lodge perambulation counter-clockwise, the Brethern setting off with the right foot. Here is a French language link to some basic information on the French Rite, practised primarily in France and French-speaking countries: LE RITE FRANCAIS à la G.L.T.S.O.[/url] Some Lodges practise the Ancient French Rite in full 18th century decor including swords, tricorne hats, etc. In yours truly's humble experience, amongst modern European languages, the Latin ones, especially French and Italian, are still unavoidable sources of esoteric knowledge in general and FM in particular, as far as such knowledge can be clothed in language. In view of the Dark Age's tendency to denature and vulgarise in order to achieve commercial results, it is IMHO doubtful that some of the most significant esoteric works will ever be translated into English. Although Italian is not an international language, Italy has an immensely rich esoteric patrimony. As Bro. René Guénon expresses it at the end of Chapter 2, La Fede Santa, of L'Ésoterisme de Dante, in English translation called The Esoterism of Dante[/url]: ... il n'en est pas moins permis de penser que, de Pythagore à Virgile et de Virgile à Dante, la "chaine de la tradition" ne fut sans doute pas rompue sur la terre d'Italie.This translates roughly into: ... it is nevertheless not less permitted to think that, from Pythagoras to Virgil and from Virgil to Dante, the "chain of tradtion" was without a doubt not broken on the soil of Italy.Those who well know Bro. René Guénon's style realise the nature of this declaration expressed in multiple negatives.
|
|
Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
|
Post by Tamrin on Feb 11, 2007 10:11:26 GMT
Those who well know Bro. René Guénon's style realise the nature of this declaration expressed in multiple negatives. lihin, your site name is itself a negative of a negative, being 'nihil' spelt backwards—'nihil', being Latin for 'nothing.' This is further emphasised by your site motto ' Non esse nihil non est,' which roughly translates as, 'not being is not nothing,' which is a triple negative (even numbered negatives are affirmative / odd numbered negatives are negative). Should we presume from this that you favour Nihilism?
|
|
jmd
Member
fourhares.com
Posts: 1,081
|
Post by jmd on Feb 11, 2007 11:16:29 GMT
Personally, I consider that the squaring of the floor in open Lodge is symbolically significant, irrespective as to whether it in part arose out of practical considerations (such as the protection of the floor-cloth or floor tracing board). In any case, all our tools arose initially out of practical considerations yet, I am reminded, we meet not as operative, but rather as free and accepted or symbolic masons.
Generally, in most rites, the squaring of the Lodge is not only done, but also specifically done in a manner that 'mimics' the apparent motion of the Sun in the northern hemisphere: ie, clockwise (and even clockwise is, after all, merely northern deosil).
lihin, I do not see the point you are suggesting in re-iterating your belief (one that is certainly not shared with many) that this is an age of darkness (or Kali Yuga). For that matter, I personally find little of worth in the writings of Guénon and most self-styled 'Traditionalists'. It seems to me that what they seek to do is deny the complexity and richness of the world by seeking to 'find' in all manifest religions only that which suits their own preferred beliefs, basically, at best, Advaita Vedanta (a form of panentheism) or, at worst, reducing all to a particular islamic viewpoint.
I realise that Guénon has had enormous influence on the spectacles through which Freemasonry is viewed in some parts of Europe (or rather, speaking from personal experience only, in France - a country for which I personally highly value its other Masonic developments, especially its gender inclusiveness and its laïcity). What seems to be lacking is a developed critique or discernment of his claims.
In some ways, by the very openness and inclusion of all human beings that especially French (but not only French) Freemasonry operates under and reflects, it is easy to seek to understand it from such a perspective, supposedly striving towards that which is common to all religious striving - claiming to seek that 'perennial' or eternal truth that Leibniz wrote about, and that the guenonian movement sees as that which is seen when the layers masking it is removed from all religious expression.
Unfortunately, of course, such is not necessarily the case: looking for what is common may bring out not the truth, but the lowest common denominator, misunderstood by oversimplification, masquerading as truth.
I realise that many of my fellow freemasons hereon find much of value in Guénon, but I shall on occasion continue to post my difference of view.
|
|
|
Post by lihin on Feb 11, 2007 12:00:10 GMT
Greetings Bro. jmd, The traditional doctrine of cycles including the subdivisions Golden, Silver, Bronze and Iron Ages, is shared by, amongst others, Greek and Indian traditions. It is closely connected to the qualitative nature of time and, by corollary, to the recognition that its linear representation is inappropriate. There is some controversy even amongst those who recognise time's cyclical nature concering the length and calculations of the cycles and where we currently are. One interesting work specifically on this subject by the British author Martin Lings is The Eleventh Hour: The Spiritual Crisis of the Modern World in the Light of Tradition and Prophecy[/url]. Pinning convenient labels, often theological or philosophical if not political, like panentheism or islamic to traditional metaphysical doctrine helps avoid the tasks of studying the relevant texts in depth, or actually engaging in the indicated operational initiatic work in an authentic initiatic Order like FM. Traditional doctrine views the spiritual as supra-human, independant of the psychic, transcending the mind, ineffable. As mentioned before, it would be surprising if an author so critical of the modern world as Bro. René Guénon did not spark controversy.
|
|
|
Post by corab on Feb 11, 2007 12:35:34 GMT
It was, I believe, originally done when there was a floor cloth which people didn't want to get dirty or wear out unnecessarily. It also makes for tidiness and dignity of movement, adding to the decorum of the proceedings. A mundane reason I admit but reasonable in the circumstances, No doubt subsequent imaginative Brethren would dream up alternative reasons for what is essentially merely a common sense practice. That's certainly an interesting and valid explanation, Bro:. Keith. However, correct me if I'm wrong, but does not the ritual say, after having explained the operative meaning of the Square, "But as we are not all operative Masons, but rather free and accepted, or speculative, we apply these tools to our morals. In this sense, the Square teaches morality ..." etc.? HGW, Cora
|
|
jmd
Member
fourhares.com
Posts: 1,081
|
Post by jmd on Feb 11, 2007 12:49:10 GMT
Bro. lihin, I understand that not everyone wishes to recognise the narrow-mindedness Guénon presents, but rather wish to treat him, or at least his adopted religious views, as sacrosanct.
|
|
|
Post by lihin on Feb 11, 2007 14:54:46 GMT
Greetings Brother jmd, May I recall that Bro. René Guénon has been quoted here as a recognised FM author in reference to the thread's ritual subject? Bro. jmd, the attributes you applied in your last post raise at least in your truly's mind the questions as to whether and to what extent you have actually read Bro. René Guénon's works, e.g. an English translation of his essential basic book Introduction to the Study of the Hindu Doctrines[/url]. Perusal of this useful volume clarifies amongst other things: - within the constraints of a modern European language, the author's intention to faithfully, without individual originality, present traditional doctrines - the basic differences between religious and metaphysical- reference to Infinite Possibility, a very broad perspective Certainly there are other very interesting authors on FM and other esoteric subjects. Bro. René Guénon is IMHO one of the clearest and most universal, providing an excellent foundation for understanding and realisation. Others may hold differing views.
|
|
|
Post by lihin on Feb 11, 2007 15:07:53 GMT
Greetings Bro. Philip, After many negatives, it may be useful to reply with a positive reference to Saint Dionysius the Areopagite's Mystical Theology, often called negative theology. Here is an English language translation: The Mystical Theology and The Divine Names[/url]
|
|
Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
|
Post by Tamrin on Feb 11, 2007 20:13:13 GMT
lihin wrote:Pinning convenient labels ... helps avoid the tasks of studying the relevant texts in depth ... My point was that YOU, lihin, appeared to have pinned the label of 'nihil-ism' to yourself: On your recommendation, I made the mistake of purchasing and studying René Guénon's, Studies in Freemasonry & the Compagnonnage. My assessment of Guénon's merit to the study of Freemasonry is much less charitable than Bro. JMD's. Regarding your reply, whereby: After many negatives, it may be useful to reply with a positive reference to Saint Dionysius the Areopagite's Mystical Theology, often called negative theology. I erred once in spending good money for a book on your recommendation, I do not intend to do so again, particularly in regard to a little known saint ( Saint Dionysius the Areopagite). I am already broadly familiar with Negative Theology and I note that it is vastly distinct from Nihilism.
|
|
giovanni
Member
odi profanum vulgus, et arceo
Posts: 2,627
|
Post by giovanni on Feb 11, 2007 20:17:12 GMT
Brethren all,
tone down, please.
|
|
|
Post by keith on Feb 11, 2007 21:11:08 GMT
QUite right Cora, there are lots of symbols about, mostly do to with the building trade in one form or another
I am a practical git and interested in WHY certain practices etc were ever adopted, you will find a practical common sense reason and a definite evolution of regalia etc at the root of just about everything. What gets my goat is when people endeavour to apply magical mystical hidden meanings to matters which were never originally intended to have them. But we've gone into all this before ad infinitum.
|
|
jmd
Member
fourhares.com
Posts: 1,081
|
Post by jmd on Feb 11, 2007 22:30:36 GMT
I suspect, Keith, that you say this only within bounds, for I rather envision (perhaps erroneously) that you accept that a chisel is also to be symbolically understood as reflecting the advantages of education.
Bro lihin, my last post was perhaps misunderstood. It was meant to simply mirror your style and substance. I certainly have not read all the corpus of Guénon's works - nor do I think I ever shall, for reasons that may already be apparent.
The three main reasons for reading his works are: that I shared an office with a budding 'Traditionalist' back in the late 80s-90s (this from a more philosophico-religious perspective); for his influence on one orientation taken by some forms of Freemasonry; and for his views on the Theosophical Society and its key figures.
I understand the initial appeal, and if read with a critical mind and balanced by other materials that are more tolerant, it is worthwhile. But then again, I have also read more extreme works I would not want to take onboard as in any manner reflecting "The Truth".
|
|
|
Post by moose on Feb 12, 2007 9:00:50 GMT
Russell mentioned this a little while ago during a practice of a first degree and I've been wanting to pick it up with him.
Sounded like he had something interesting to say on it. I find it curious that french masonry move counter clock wise, I'm only an E.A also but that difference makes it sound more to do with energy than just taking care of a painting.
Note that in the northern hemisphere water moves anti clock wise and down here it moves clock wise.
Could this be some anchient local adaption to every area to make things more harmonic.
On another not I posted about coloured spirals on a different thread, I mention one was blue and one was red. My first impression when I saw the red was that of French lodge, I had read that the french refer to themselves as red lodge so I imediatly thought of red and blue lodge at a lack of any other explanation at the time anyway. Cheers Sean M
|
|
|
Post by hollandr on Feb 12, 2007 9:22:57 GMT
>makes it sound more to do with energy than just taking care of a painting.
Sean
I think you are correct. The squaring is to do with the mosaic pavement.
Now why do we bother with a mosaic pavement? And why are the tiles parallel to the walls when in some old illustrations you can find diagonal pavements and semi-circular pavements
Cheers
Russell
|
|