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Post by hollandr on Apr 10, 2008 22:21:14 GMT
In the ritual in my lodge the charge on the working tools for the FC explains that "we apply these tools in a moral sense".
But the charge does not actually show how to apply the tools. Instead it philosophises about the principles.
Is it actually possible to apply tools such as the square and plumbrule in a moral sense?
Can a physical square interact directly with the moral nature of a brother?
Or is it all just rhetoric?
(Sean, I post this after our interaction at practice last night)
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Tamrin
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Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Apr 10, 2008 23:47:29 GMT
Is it actually possible to apply tools such as the square and plumbrule in a moral sense? Yes
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Post by hollandr on Apr 11, 2008 0:08:52 GMT
Do tell
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Tamrin
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Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Apr 11, 2008 0:11:16 GMT
Read the ritual.
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Post by hollandr on Apr 11, 2008 0:42:40 GMT
>Read the ritual.
I even learned some of it by heart
Hence my original question.
Is Masonry being rhetorical rather than practical when it says we use these tools in a moral sense?
If so, the ritual might as well say that we use pictures of the tools in a moral sense
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Post by maximus on Apr 11, 2008 0:51:31 GMT
Is Masonry being rhetorical rather than practical when it says we use these tools in a moral sense? If so, the ritual might as well say that we use pictures of the tools in a moral sense We use the tools symbolically, as a memnotic device. Surely you, with your esoteric leanings, know this?
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Post by hollandr on Apr 11, 2008 1:09:50 GMT
>We use the tools symbolically, as a memnotic device.
Veiled in allegory and illustrated by symbol
I constantly seek to unveil the allegory and get past illustrations to practical matters in an effort to establish Masonry as an operational spiritual science
But to use a common example:
In my lodge the common gavel is a working tool for the EA. Now how would we use such a tool in a moral sense?
Perhaps we could use it to knock some sense into deserving brethren. Would that qualify as a moral use - if not an ethical use? (Who uses a maul in the 3rd degree? Is that a moral use)
Or we could use a gavel to bring the brethren to order. Would that constitute a moral use of a working tool?
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Tamrin
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Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Apr 11, 2008 1:22:04 GMT
Veiled in allegory and illustrated by symbol You left out, "A peculiar system of morality," which is the key to your question.
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Post by hollandr on Apr 11, 2008 1:43:14 GMT
>You left out, "A peculiar system of morality," which is the key to your question.
Would you like to expand upon that?
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Apr 11, 2008 2:49:32 GMT
>You left out, "A peculiar system of morality," which is the key to your question. Would you like to expand upon that? A peculiar system of morality, veiled in allegory, and illustrated by symbols.
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Post by hollandr on Apr 11, 2008 3:49:16 GMT
Gosh
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Post by hollandr on Apr 11, 2008 11:29:00 GMT
So there is not much support for using a gavel to induce moral change.
But what if some of the working tools could detect moral change?
For example in Australia at least a person who slumps is regarded as potentially less reliable than a person who stands upright. Indeed to describe a person as upright leaves ambiguity about whether that describes the posture or the character
Could the plumb rule therefore be used to detect moral character?
Of course we can judge physical uprightness by eye pretty well and may not be concerned with great accuracy. But plumb rule is used to judge uprightness and physical uprightness is often regarded as closely related to character.
I wonder if any other working tools could be used to assess moral qualities?
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Post by hollandr on Apr 14, 2008 2:16:40 GMT
It looks like we better stick to moralising
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Post by chriswitt on Apr 15, 2008 20:22:18 GMT
Could the plumb rule therefore be used to detect moral character? I think far more would need to be done to assess moral character. And appearances/behaviours are often deceiving, almost certainly making such an assessment invalid.
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Post by hollandr on Apr 15, 2008 22:01:14 GMT
>I think far more would need to be done to assess moral character.
Quite so
But I am exploring our assertion that we use these tools in a moral sense
Do some of the tools contain principles that can be directly used in assessing morality
For example in English we talk about leveling with someone. How did this metaphor arise?
Or is it not metaphor at all but a literal description of some inner process?
Or we might say: I will be square with you. How did that metaphor arise?
One might argue that humans instinctively think in terms of right angles, but there are cultures that do not use them.
So I wonder if the application of the common gavel might knock some sense into deserving brethren
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Post by chriswitt on Apr 16, 2008 5:35:17 GMT
Or is it not metaphor at all but a literal description of some inner process? I think so. "In this sense, the common gavel represents the force of conscience" Of course, the literal use of a common gavel on a subject may force change upon them. However "....which should keep down all vain and unbecoming thoughts which might obtrude during any of the aforementioned periods" Surely a task to be undertaken by each Brother individually with the help of TGAOTU?
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Post by hollandr on Apr 16, 2008 7:55:20 GMT
>.which should keep down all vain and unbecoming thoughts which might obtrude during any of the aforementioned periods
That may be a correct assertion.
But do we know how the gavel might do that?
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Post by chriswitt on Apr 16, 2008 12:28:28 GMT
From an internal process aspect, I would say it would be noticing your thoughts and knocking off / discarding any which you feel are vain or unbecoming.
An un ending task. Unless you achieve enlightenment/mastership?
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Post by hollandr on Apr 16, 2008 20:08:31 GMT
>From an internal process aspect,
Does the use of the gavel in the lodge assist with keeping down thoughts? How?
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Post by chriswitt on Apr 17, 2008 15:43:32 GMT
Possibly the gavel indicates moving from one part of the proceedings to the next, so focus is drawn to what is happening in the present.
I have heard the gavel being used to quieten the Bretheren if they are talking too loudly amongst themselves whilst the candidate is being prepared / being restored.
So the gavel is maybe used in Lodge; 1, To move on 2, To quiten the chatter
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