Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Jul 26, 2007 0:11:56 GMT
As a rule the myth is no explanation of the origin of the ritual to any one who does not believe it to be a narrative of real occurrences, and the boldest mythologist will not believe that. William Robertson Smith Perhaps some of the readers of this Masonic forum may like to explore the field of comparative mythology, of which the late Professor Joseph Campbell is now the best know exponent. I lead off with the following consideration: Myth and Ritual Debate:Given our immersion in both ritual and myth, I would be interested in exploring various Masonic perspectives.
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Post by hollandr on Jul 26, 2007 0:48:58 GMT
This seems to me to be an analytical as compared to an experiential approach. Modern examples of an experiential approach include Jung and Castenada. I understand Jung to have undertaken the experiential work while the conceptual structure was developed by his mistress. here is a quote from Jung that might cross into Masonic territory: "I myself was, so it seemed, in the Pardes Rimmonim, the garden of pomegranates, and the wedding of Tifereth with Malchuth was taking place. Or else I was Rabbi Simon ben Jochai, whose wedding in the afterlife was being celebrated. It was the mystic marriage as it appears in the Cabbalistic tradition. I cannot tell you how wonderful it was. I could only think continually, “Now this is the garden of pomegranates! Now this is the marriage of Malchuth with Tifereth!” I do not know exactly what part I played in it. At bottom it was I myself: I was the marriage. And my beatitude was that of a blissful wedding." Castenada is repudiated by the analytics en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Castaneda but he founded a practitioner group that seems to be reasonably successful. Personally I have found some of his techniques valuable Perhaps both the conceptual and the experiential approaches have value and that if either is absent there is the potential for loss of practical application I seem to find that in Masonry - layers of event-based and philosophical material allowing a wide range of interpretations. A possible example is the possible concealment of an account of killing of James the Just within our HA mythology Cheers Russell
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Jul 26, 2007 1:24:11 GMT
Bro. Russell,Although Carl Jung is by definition an analyst, he should indeed be numbered among the Comparative Mythologists and is, I suggest, not necessarily more or less experiential or practical than those mentioned above (I do not see why one can not be both analytical and experiential—ideally, they go together). Both he and they see many myths as being deeply meaningful and neither he nor they see myths as needing any historical origin. My elder son had been enthusiastically reading my Castaneda books when I pointed out that they were fictional (see the link Russell provided), whereupon he could not bring himself to read another word, despite my suggestion that they were not necessarily worthless. As for the killing of James the Just as a singular basis for the Hiramic Legend, this is but one of several possibilities, including the killing of Osiris, Tammuz, the destruction of the image of Asherah, Jesus, Hypatia, the persecution of the Albigensians, Christ, Jacques deMolay, etc., etc. What this diversity suggests to me is that, in making legends of historical figures, “facts” are often contrived to conform with myths.
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Post by hollandr on Jul 26, 2007 1:39:14 GMT
>in making legends of historical figures, “facts” are often contrived to conform with myths.
Quite so, especially if the new legendary figure needs to acquire the support of the old guard.
The development of Christianity is an obvious case with strong parallels between Roman and Chaldean religious traditions
>I pointed out that they were fictional
I assume that your position was derived from the opinions of analytics.
For myself I have found Castenada's technique for identifying proximity of death most valuable in identifying those at risk long before they have clinical symptoms
Cheers
Russell
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Jul 26, 2007 2:00:43 GMT
>I pointed out that they were fictional
I assume that your position was derived from the opinions of analytics. Bro. Russell,The fiction is clear, even from the Wikipedia link you provided. I explicitly did NOT deny his books nevertheless had merit. Indeed, I would add that Castaneda's fiction is an example of the possibility of myth being independent of history and still being meaningful.
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Post by hollandr on Jul 26, 2007 3:27:55 GMT
>The fictition is clear Philip I don't quite understand how fiction produces various metaphysical techniques that apparently do not have prior published sources See for example his (actually Don Juan's) techniques for identifying one's personal death and its spatial and temporal proximity or his Magical Passes www.castaneda.com/ Although I recall Dion Fortune explaining that the process of writing of The Sea Priestess www.jwmt.org/v1n0/dfortune.html disclosed much magical lore to her. So perhaps writing and experiencing are not mutually exclusive Cheers Russell
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Jul 26, 2007 4:19:10 GMT
I don't quite understand how fiction produces various metaphysical techniques that apparently do not have prior published sources Bro. Russell,I wonder, on what basis do you say, "...that apparently do not have prior published sources"? The techniques Castaneda describes may or may not be valid. However the circumstances under which he describes having learnt them are fictional. While circumstances rule out his version, we simply do not know how he acquired his knowledge—intuition, undisclosed sources... whatever. As an Anthropology student Castaneda may have been familiar with relevant texts.
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Post by hollandr on Jul 26, 2007 6:08:12 GMT
> I wonder, on what basis do you say, "...that apparently do not have prior published sources"?
Well for example he gives death over the left shoulder and the dark gap in the solar plexus as means for identifying proximity of death
Both of those techniques seem to work but I have not seen them published elsewhere
There is a third technique based on the bilateral "clip" from the shoulder blades but I am not sure if that is in Castenada. Perhaps some one could confirm that
Cheers
Russell
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Jul 26, 2007 6:43:38 GMT
Both of those techniques seem to work but I have not seen them published elsewhere Of more relevance is whether or not Castaneda had encountered them elsewhere.
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Post by hollandr on Jul 26, 2007 8:50:41 GMT
>Of more relevance is whether or not Castaneda had encountered them elsewhere.
Well if we can't find them in the literature - this being a fairly well read forum - perhaps Castaneda had another teacher whom he veiled by the fictitious account of Don Juan
Cheers
Russell
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Jul 26, 2007 9:36:10 GMT
>Of more relevance is whether or not Castaneda had encountered them elsewhere.
Well if we can't find them in the literature - this being a fairly well read forum - perhaps Castaneda had another teacher whom he veiled by the fictitious account of Don Juan
Cheers
Russell Possibly, although I suggest you may be a bit premature in deciding they can't be found in the literature (it could well be an obscure source). In any case, Castaneda's "historical" account is fictional, illustrating that myth can and often does have its own reality, independent of historical truth.
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Jul 26, 2007 23:48:27 GMT
See for example his (actually Don Juan's) techniques for identifying one's personal death and its spatial and temporal proximity or his Magical Passes www.castaneda.com/ Bro. Russell,As your links shows, Castaneda borrowed the term " Tensegrity" from R. Buckminster Fuller to describe the technique. As easily as he borrowed the term, he could have borrowed the technique from elsewhere. Indeed if, (although circumstance rule out the possibility), he acquired it as described, one regrets that, for whatever reason, he did not use the indigenous term, (which one presumes he would have learnt in his "training"). Had he done so, this may have facilitated a meaningful data search.
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Tamrin
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Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Jul 27, 2007 5:13:09 GMT
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