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Post by middlepillar on Dec 5, 2004 12:18:38 GMT
I would definately visit as much as I could, however I would not seek membership.
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Post by Seeker on Dec 8, 2004 1:32:15 GMT
Sorry Andrew, I am sure you had the very best of intentions, but if UGLE allowed visits I couldn't see the point of changing to join the Co-masons - Of course the visitation rules for othe Genuine Freemason could be changed at the same time. It is not just co-masons who are caught up in the Rules ;D
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Post by taylorsman on Dec 8, 2004 5:49:11 GMT
I don't see this happening in my lifetime, so as I'm 52 next year let's say in the next 30 years , but then then again in 1972 when I came down to England who would have thought that former Communist bloc countries such as Poland would be in what was then the Common Market (EU) and to join NATO, or that the once great State Owned Industries such as Rail,Coal, Electricity etc would have been sold off into private hands?
Sometimes "earth shattering" changes can occur far easier than small adjustments, so who knows if one day intervisitation may be allowed?
I used to be very anti but the reasoning and polite debate of the likes of Whistler, Ingo, Hubert and JMD , on another Forum led me to take a more concilliatory view on this. Yes, if permitted I would now certainly visit a Co-Masonic Lodge.
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Post by a on Dec 8, 2004 6:39:02 GMT
Steve
Freemasonry is already changing - haven't you noticed?
One issue which some may miss is that I understand that UGLE Freemasonry is not held in high regard by all of the other Freemasonic groups and their members. Some may not consider, for example, UGLE Freemasons to be, on the whole, taught correctly, and others may not like the Royalty aspect.
You know from posts on the other forum that getting all of these groups around the table and talking is far from easy. But at least things do appear to be moving in that direction. Then the evolution can occur. Then many of the issues facing Freemasonry will evaporate away.
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Post by taylorsman on Dec 8, 2004 7:57:10 GMT
".... UGLE Freemasonry is not held in high regard by all of the other Freemasonic groups and their members. "
Well that is hardly a surprise, is it? The IRA is not held in high esteem by the Orange Order or vice versa.
I don't think that UGLE is all that bothered about what LDH etc think about it at that level.
INDIVIDUAL Freemasons may take a different view, I for one would like to see many of the restrictions on Intervisitation being relaxed but as long as UGLE maintains its Oligarchical, Top Down and Appointed structure unlike its Scots Brother Grand Lodge which is a lot more democratic, then there is little that will change unless people vote with their feet.
There is unlikely to be a mass walk out Stewart. Firstly, it is the English way to moan about things but do nothing. In other countries the actions of the present Government in some matters would have had barricades erected and Blair etc fleeing for their lives but we Brits mearly moan over our pints and will probably vote them back in for lack of a credible and viable alternative. The Poll Tax was the last issue which resulted in direct action uniting people across the divides of class and economic situation.
Freemasonry is a very "conservative" organisation, not given to rocking the boat, not an attractor of movers and shakers, rebels, radicals etc. Most Brethren I have met over the last 16 years have been quite prepared to accept the existing structures even if they moan at the decisions of (the Standing Committees of) Grand Lodge or the dictats of their PGM on some point or other, but will stay in, keep their heads down some, like myself, because they feel that the good points outweigh the bad or others in the hope of Honours and other preferment.
That, Stewart is Human Nature.
I too moan about the actions of the "powers that be" at both GL and Provincial Level, but when I weigh these up against the marvellous Meeting and the true Cameraderie and Brotherliness I enjoyed in the company of Bro Andrew and another Brother on Saturday at my London Lodge these fade into the shadows.
I have often said that one can read a book and learn the Theory. I am quite aware of how an aircraft works and what the controls do but I can not fly one and thus cannot realistically comment on that experience compared to a Pilot.
In the end, Stewart, you will have to become a Freemason, of whatever affiliation, to have hands on knowledge and be able to judge from an informed position.
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Post by a on Dec 8, 2004 8:21:57 GMT
Steve
I am having some difficulty is seeing how your reply relates to my post, but I will think upon it.
The only comment that I would make is that, as you well know, a mass walk out would be the last thing that I want, given that I would love to see the different fraternities working together better. Strength in coordinated diversity.
I was simply trying to make the point that in the wider Masonic world UGLE is only one element. There are hundreds of Grand Lodges that are not in amity with UGLE. Though I realise that to UGLE Masons the Masonic world may start and stop there.
Anyway Steve, I am not here for a fight.
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Post by taylorsman on Dec 8, 2004 8:33:59 GMT
" I am not here for a fight. "
Nor am I as you should know, however being a pragmatist I realise that many of these other bodies are far smaller indeed than UGLE and mainstream Freemasonry and that to the World at Large when they speak about Freemasonry they mean the likes of UGLE, GL of S, GL of I, most of the US Grand Lodges etc.
I feel that like the Christian Churches now do, we ought to co-operate more and Intervisitation could be part of this , but we should retain our separate identities not meld into a uniform mass, my old remark elsewhere about the "Romano-Prodo-Anglo-Bapto-Evangelo-Ritualistic-Church" .
As an example I consider Whistler first to be a Freemason like me, then a Co-Mason , whereas I am a Freemason who is a Traditional Male Only Mason. A bit like I consider some friends to be fellow Christians then as RCs, or Anglicans or Baptists etc.
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Post by a on Dec 8, 2004 8:42:53 GMT
Steve
Can you confidantly state that UGLE-amity is the biggest world wide? I am not sure whether it is or not.
Take the various comasonic fraternities, the ladies only fraternities of Freemasons, the male only unrecognised whether for political involvement, the many unrecognised prince hall, other reasons, etc, and bearing in mind that growth is being experienced by some of these, then combined, hundreds of small fraternities, are a mighty force.
And if if UGLE-amity is the current biggest will that be the case in 5 or 10 or 15 years? Bearing in mind that some of these other fraternities are I understand involved in colleges etc?
But this is moving into power plays, an area that I have zero interest in. What is important is that Freemasonry remains healthy in our world.
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Post by atarnaris on Dec 8, 2004 12:50:06 GMT
Stewart,
As you have previously said you seem to know people in different fraternities. Do you by any chance then have numbers/figures of "Irregular" Masonic Fraternities? I would be interested in that.
For the point of discusssion UGLE mentions on its website that it is estimated that there are around 5 million "regular" Freemasons globally.
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Post by atarnaris on Dec 8, 2004 12:52:17 GMT
Sorry Andrew, I am sure you had the very best of intentions, but if UGLE allowed visits I couldn't see the point of changing to join the Co-masons It makes sense what you are saying Seeker. However, one could be lured to join the other side due to its most "intellectual" approach to Freemasonry and benefit from a full membership, rather than the occasional curious visit. Just a thought...
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Post by a on Dec 8, 2004 12:58:08 GMT
Andrew
Re: non UGLE-amity Fraternities
This is something that I am working on, there are a lot of them, some quite small, others rather larger. I will hopefully have a clearer idea next Springtime.
Re: intellectual side of Freemasonry (as you describe it)
It is also there in some UGLE Lodges, or so I am told. But you can find the truth of this easier that me from your inside track. I think that a good part of the "intellectual" stuff that I think you are referring to does exist within UGLE, but it is in the esoteric side orders, some of which branch of from the SRIA. From what I can tell it is not uncommon for non-UGLE fraternities to put such knowledge at the Craft Lodge level. But remember these are only my external perceptions, albeit based on discussions with Freemasons. I can see advantages and disadvantages of both schools of thought.
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Post by Hubert (N. Z.) on Dec 12, 2004 3:05:01 GMT
As a CoMason this poll does not relate to me. If it had been asked in the reverse ,though my instincts are that I would like to be part of the Male craft brotherhood also: I would first want to visit a variety of such lodges to see how they function, before making any decission.
On another forum (TFM), I mentioned that several members of the Christchurch CoM fraternity(myself included) were invited to attend a Male Craft meeting to explain what we were about. This was a ground breaking innovation, which had the sanction of the Hierarchies of both organisations.
5 ladies and myself attended, and the WM of the Lodge concerned kindly invited me to take the chair to present our case (I had been delegated by the others to get the ball rolling). So even with mixed masonry we agree amongst ourselves who does what.
A reasoned debate, question and answer session ensued, which resulted in a realisation that the main difference between the two Lodges represented was the basis on which they opperated. Whilst the country male craft Lodge primarily met in comradeship as a result of being formed by returned soldiers from the 2 great wars, the CoM lodge met to discover more of the unseen forces of nature. It transpired that we both effectively worked similar rituals, tho' CoM's had a more "spiritual" essence, which was not to be confused with religious intent. An interesting observation was that some actively participated, whilst others sat stoney faced.
Personally, I did feel a vast difference in the energy present. The Lodge building was pleasant and familiar. The Chair had to me a rightful ambience, though totally different to the one to which I was acustomed. Each side treated the other with respect,as I would expect and we were made very welcome at the festive function following. Some of the male Brn. present indicated a willingness to accept our invitation for a retun visit to our Installation in February 2005.
Whilst not stictly on your poll subject I feel this was a worthwhile excercise and should encourage others arround the globe to consider similar meetings.
W.H.G.W. Hubert, Christchurch Lodge No 6, Eastern Order International Co-Freemasonry.
(the above are my own personal views and not necessarily that of others within CoM)
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Post by whistler on Dec 12, 2004 3:19:55 GMT
Hubert- They are also my views Well done and keep it up.
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Post by zz-Midlander on Dec 12, 2004 8:54:33 GMT
Stewart, As you have previously said you seem to know people in different fraternities. Do you by any chance then have numbers/figures of "Irregular" Masonic Fraternities? I would be interested in that. For the point of discusssion UGLE mentions on its website that it is estimated that there are around 5 million "regular" Freemasons globally. These figures are well out of date (1991); but just to give some idea as to the size of LDH back then, the total membership was around 1500. Since then, Co-Masonry in the U.K. has had a split with the Grand Lodge of Men and Women being formed. Of course, numbers of both organisations may have increased significantly in recent years, but speaking for the '80's and 90's LDH had great difficulty finding Candidates of the right calibre back then. Although as many have already stated large numbers of members are not everything................
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Post by taylorsman on Dec 12, 2004 9:56:35 GMT
".... but speaking for the '80's and 90's LDH had great difficulty finding Candidates of the right calibre back then. "
UGLE etc Freemasonry had exactly the same difficulties in that time period too, but things seem to be improving now for many Lodges with Candidates and the knock on effect for RA and the Higher Degrees.
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Post by ingo on Apr 15, 2005 8:47:52 GMT
Midlander I doubt both figures. Where should these 5 millions "regular" freemasons be? Some ten years ago you could read the number of 6 million regular masons with about 4 million only in the US. But even in 1994 the US "regular" GLs reported only 1,6 million members, which still is tremendous. But after all, there cannot be much more than 2,5 million "regular" masons left in 2005. And these are only the "white" grand lodges. In the other hand the LDH and his various offsprings have a mmbership about 30.-40.000 worldwide. This is not much but figures go up. Csonsidering male masonry there are dozens of Prince Hall GLs and Brasilian GLs which are not considered regular as well. The PH GLs are estimated more than 600.000 members in the US today! The irregular brasilian grandloges might unite about 200.000 members. Irregular male only masonry in France (GODF, Grande Loge de France and others) are about 60.-70.000 members. And so on... The problem is that fraternal relations between those bodies is difficult as well. ;D
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