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Post by middlepillar on Oct 3, 2007 16:49:21 GMT
Dear members
For quite some time it has been discussed among the moderators the position and standing of The Co-Masonry Board.
It has been put forward that by having a Co-Masonry Board it singles out Co-Masonry as somehow being different from all other Masonry. To back this suggestion up it has been pointed out we do not have a Board for Female Freemasonry, Prince Hall Masonry or even UGLE Freemasonry!
We have always been extremely proud of the open Boards and light moderation we try to have, it has been decided to ask you our members (And of course the mods themselves can input into this Poll) what you think we should do.
Please take a look at the options and we really value all of your comments.
We will stand by the vote so everyone should please cast thier vote by17th October which gives us two weeks to discuss and vote on this subject.
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Post by middlepillar on Oct 3, 2007 16:55:45 GMT
I would like to say that I genuinely have not made up my mind on this subject, please remember that we have been discussing this in the moderators section, and there have been some very powerful arguments for keeping and removing (to place posts in General section)
I hope that we can have some interesting view points that will help me (The traditional fence sitter!) to make up my mind
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Post by lauderdale on Oct 3, 2007 17:27:35 GMT
Having had the relatively rare experience of having been in both I would say that Co-Masonry IS different to Malecraft, Mainstream, UGLE style Freemasonry.
For a start we treat Women as Equals in all things, the Gender of the person coming through the door of the Lodge is of no consequence to us. We currently have a Female Grand Master (elected) and previous to her we had a man. Likewise we have a Male Most Puissant Grand Commander but our previous MPGC was a Woman. There are other quite distinct differences too in our Organisation and Governance, in how we consider Craft to be part of A&ASR and that there is an Initiatic Continuity from 1st to 33rd Degree, a big difference to the UGLE etc viewpoint on that matter. We are also a lot more "Esoteric" than Malecraft Freemasonry and less "Social/Charity Orientated". That is not to say we are "better" but simply different.
That being the case I feel that it would be a bad move to abolish the separate Co-Masonic section and mix it in with the General . Indeed if there is a demand why not have separate sections for Women Only Freemasonry, American Freemasonry, Prince Hall Freemasonry, Grand Orient of France etc? That is not to say that onewould have to be a Member of such to post there but that the subject matter would have to be relevant or it would be moved by a Moderator to the General section.
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imakegarb
Member
One wee, sleeket, cowran, tim'rous beastie
Posts: 3,573
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Post by imakegarb on Oct 3, 2007 18:02:20 GMT
I've voted to remove it completely, moving topics appropriately.
Yes, Bro. Steve, Co-Masonry *is* a different part of Freemasonry. But it is not different from Freemasonry. So it does not need it's own board, no more than Malecraft and Femalecraft Masonry needs their own boards. Since it's a part of Freemasonry, Co-Masonry can be discussed in the General Discussion area, where topics of other parts of Freemasonry are discussed.
For the record, I am the quite-sick-and-tired Co-mason who brought this topic up on the Admin/Mod side. After some debate there and, as Bro. MP rightly pointed out, since MFOL takes an admirably light approach to moderation, it was decided to put this up for a vote by the Membership.
I will also state, publicly, that I will never, ever again participate on a Co-Masonry board at any forum not solely dedicated to Co-Masonry. I am no longer willing to be an eager target for those Brothers more interested in scoring points than in civil debate. And I wonder at any brother who would want me to be such a target. So if anyone wants to discuss Co-Masonry with me, they'll need to do it, with me, in the General Discussion area.
Here are my reasons for voting as I did: 1) Having a Co-Masonry Board implies that it is, somehow, different from other forms of Freemasonry and needs it's own place. We don't have a Prince Hall forum. We also don't have Swedish Rite, UGLE, GLS, GOoF, etc. forums, which is appropriate as they are all a part of Freemasonry and don't need their own forums. Having such a board here suggests Co-Masonry is different. It isn't.
2) This board, in establishing #1, immediately puts participating Co-Masons in the glare and on the defensive. Because we know from experience what's coming. Which militant Co-Masons eagerly but from which rank-and-file Co-Masons shy away.
3) This board the lowest form of Malecraft Masons who watch like circling sharks for the next Brother to attack. And, upon being attacked, some Co-Masons respond with venom. Which the Malecraft "brothers" use, online and elsewhere, as an examples of what Co-Masons are really like. An example which many Co-Masons use to say why it's not worth speaking to Malecraft Masons.
4). Innocent bystanders from across Freemasonry get savaged in the process and question whether they want to be so open minded, or participate at MFOL.
5) All the above spirals out of control and the admins/moderators spend an inordinate amount of time moderating the place - or, worse, get caught up in the maelstrom.
6) All the above causes faaaaaaaaaar more darkness than light.
I'm recommending that we kill this board and fold its existing threads into the General Discussion board. That's already the place to discuss Prince Hall and other parts of Freemasonry, so it's appropriate to place the Co-Masonry threads there. Also, placing it there immediately removes the idea that MFOL, somehow, sees Co-Masonry as different and, immediately, puts the entire conversation on a different footing.
I'm not saying the topic won't continue negative. As I mentioned, there are those in Freemasonry - from across the Freemasonic spectum - who want it to be negative and will do all they can to make it so. That won't change. But segregating Co-Masonry from other topics would make it more mainstream, would tell these "Brothers" MFOL does not consider Co-Masonry to be outside the Pale and would make the conversation more likely to be civil.
Removing this board also would send a very clear signal to those who brothers who don't want civil debate but just want to let into each other - for motivations of their own - that they no longer have a welcome pit in which to fight.
If the Co-Masonry forum remains, I will next recommend that MFOL establish forums for Malecraft and Femalecraft Masonry. For those branches are every bit as different as is Co-Masonry; and if Co-Masonry requires its own board, then so do those branches.
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Post by mike on Oct 3, 2007 19:17:28 GMT
I agree almost entirely with Karen on this.
M
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Post by lauderdale on Oct 3, 2007 19:26:51 GMT
"If the Co-Masonry forum remains, I will next recommend that MFOL establish forums for Malecraft and Femalecraft Masonry. For those branches are every bit as different as is Co-Masonry; and if Co-Masonry requires its own board, then so do those branches"I
I agree, so set them up. Other Masonic Fora have different Sections for different aspects of Freemasonry and it seems to work quite well.
If you are going to ditch the Co-Masonic Section and throw it into a big melting pot called General, then why continue to have a separate "Esoteric" section? After all, are not Esoteric Masons such as myself as much Freemasons as any other?
I see someone looking for a quick fix here , where a bit firmer Moderation in the past, to BOTH sides when they stepped out of line, would have resolved the matter.
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Post by billmcelligott on Oct 3, 2007 20:49:47 GMT
I agree with Steve, what he said.
With the proviso that in the course of time you find that most members will or will not post in certain areas, whatever they may be called. So what happens is that you get rid of the forum that do not get attention.
For example I have tried for many yeras to get Womens Freemasonry and Prince Hall to participate on the General Masonic Forum, but it has become obvious they do not wish to.
So I see no reason why you cant have 'Female Craft', 'Male Craft' and 'Co Craft' all on a level. But I will tell you now no one will post in the female section. or at least I have not been able to make it happen.
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Post by lauderdale on Oct 3, 2007 20:56:20 GMT
Karen, you have achieved a miracle!!!!!
You have managed to get myself and Bro Bill to agree again!
I take my hat off to you madam!
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Post by middlepillar on Oct 3, 2007 21:06:01 GMT
I see someone looking for a quick fix here , where a bit firmer Moderation in the past, to BOTH sides when they stepped out of line, would have resolved the matter. Bro Lauderdale No one is looking for a quick fix! If you cannot see the validity in Imakegarbs points and reasons for wanting to drop the Co Masonic thread fair enough, I do not see the need to trivialize a brothers genuine concerns. I can only see good reasons in Bro Imakegarbs argument, I also have good reasons for wanting to keep it open, which I will post later. In response to your 'You may as well dump the esoteric section as well' I cannot even begin to understand why you wish to be so trivial in this. Esoteric Freemasonry is something that interests brethren from all branches of Freemasonry and is a genuine subject for research. Please stick to the Poll, state your reasons for wanting to keep the section open and let others state thier reasons
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Post by lauderdale on Oct 3, 2007 21:26:51 GMT
As "m'learned friends" would say, I resubmit what I said, "By way of case stated". I can see no need to further justify the retention of the separate Co-Masonic Section, and as I have said find myself in agreement with Bro Bill. Again as the Lawyers would put it "Res ipsa loquitor".
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Post by billmcelligott on Oct 3, 2007 21:35:02 GMT
Oh well so as to keep the blood flowing.
Of course you do realize we both could have been tempered with a firmer hand.
But I dont see it as a quick fix, there has been some long debate before it was put forward here as a suggestion. The forum is, in the end, the sum total of those who participate. It is they who do so who should decide on these things.
But if one persons views are valid then yours are also. So even if I do think you are a bit bonkers you have every right to be so. [ this is a joke and does not represent the policy of my Grand Lodge it is my opinion and I have no right to represent My GL in anyway what so ever]
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Post by lauderdale on Oct 3, 2007 21:56:39 GMT
"So even if I do think you are a bit bonkers you have every right to be so."
Takes one to know one, as they say and I of course accord you the absolute right to be bonkers also.
Yes you are totally correct, we both hold our beliefs dearly and tend to fight like cat and dog when ever we perceive a slight against them, in your case UGLE, in mine Co-Masonry in general and LDH in particular. It is futile to ask either of us to tone it down as we do tend to rub sparks of each other, that's human nature I'm afraid. We were at each other's throats even before I became a Co-Mason. At least Bro Bill you do have some fire in your belly, and that I admire in these PC days when people are too scared that they might just offend someone, somewhere, if they state their honest and sincere opinion.
Returning to the specifics, I can see absolutely no reason to close the Co-Masonry Section and sling such posts into the "General Section" which would only muddy the waters.
Instead Bro Bill I go along with the idea of having separate sections for Women Only Masonry, US Masonry, Prince Hall, etc, etc, etc. As you say people could then choose which they wanted to read. As you know you won't find me on the Jokes and Humour section of another Forum we both post to nor on the Charitable and Social Events Section here.
That's my bit on this and it will be of interest to see how many vote and what way it goes in the end
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Post by mike on Oct 3, 2007 22:19:21 GMT
Just to pick up on a point made earlier, I note that there is only one Esoteric Masonic Discussion area.
I think on a board like this, where there is a stronger element of Co-masonic input, having a separate area for Co-masonry is a bit redundant.
When I set up the "Feminine & Co-Masonry" Section (some years ago I might add) at TFM, I was on a mission to educate. At that time the membership was 100% Masculine masons, even now it is probably still greater than 90% so I still see a need for the division. I just don't think it's needed on this Forum in particular.
Just my tuppence worth
M
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jmd
Member
fourhares.com
Posts: 1,081
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Post by jmd on Oct 3, 2007 22:38:28 GMT
There is nothing that I see in the specifically headed "Co-Masonry" that could not be located in one of the other two forums (perhaps there is one or two threads that seem distinct, but no more).
There may eventually be a need for further different divisions of sub-Fora on these boards, but that will undoubtedly arise when and if discussions are more than tenfold their current number. Basically for me, I do not see any distinctions in the substance of discussions between the Co-Masonic sub-forum and the General and Esoteric Masonic Discussions.
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Post by billmcelligott on Oct 3, 2007 23:35:37 GMT
All I can say Steve its better to be bonkers than boring.
I dont think this is a vital issue to be honest , if people want to disagree they will do that no matter where the posts are located.
However it would be interesting to comment on each point made by the proposer:-
I certainly do not view the forum like this. it just seems to me, like in a Library a conveniet way of directing people to their points of interest.
I would be interested to know if co Masons feel threatened in this way.
with all the dialogue that I have been involved in on many forum , I just cant see this at all. Maybe becuse I am not a Co Mason , so again it needs other Co Masons to say what they think.
Has anyone left MFoL becuse there is a Co Masonic forum ? I dont know, if they have then it is a valid point.
Then maybe it would be better if just the 4 Co-Masonic Mods looked after this area ?
I will try this analogy again hopefully to better affect. spike Milligan said it best.
Things that go bump in the night, should not give one a fright, its the whole in the ear that lets in the fear. That and the absense of Light.
So I think that in order to make darkness light you have to shine a light into the dark places, that is best done by examining and debating sometimes difficult questions. If we never push the boudaries we do not learn. But of course that can be done in or out of any particular forum on MFoL.
In conclusion I repeat it is not a question that gives me any sleepless nights and I am happy to go along with whatever you Guys decide.
Well I dont have any choice.
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Post by maat on Oct 4, 2007 0:24:56 GMT
I see someone looking for a quick fix here , where a bit firmer Moderation in the past, to BOTH sides when they stepped out of line, would have resolved the matter. THATS what I told them Lauderdale when I wanted to delete some of your posts, but they voted me down. Maat
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jmd
Member
fourhares.com
Posts: 1,081
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Post by jmd on Oct 4, 2007 0:27:12 GMT
By the way, the sub-heading to the Forum is: "Find out about Co and Women only Masonry", whereas in fact, very little is specifically geared to that, and instead general discussions inclusive of Co-Freemasonry.
Conversely, of course, similar discussions occur in the General and Esoteric Fora that includes co-Masonic aspects.
I also agree with Mike's point about TFM and the differences it faced some time back in distinction to MFoL in its current situation.
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Post by maat on Oct 4, 2007 0:51:17 GMT
with all the dialogue that I have been involved in on many forum , I just cant see this at all. Maybe becuse I am not a Co Mason , so again it needs other Co Masons to say what they think. Has anyone left MFoL becuse there is a Co Masonic forum ? I dont know, if they have then it is a valid point. Yes - Three that I know of, but I suspect several others. I don't think so. Two of us will not go there any more because it has ceased to reflect the Light of Co-Masonry. Co-Masonry is about inner work. I liked the poem Bill - but who said we are afraid to go in. Fear has nothing to do with it. In my case it more a matter of avoiding the street gangs and seeking out the places of learning, on other threads. PLUS - it is downright depressing to see something you love dragged down like it is. And what happens when you shine a light into the darkness? It disappears ;D If I am not mistaken, every single masonic tool has something which restricts it sphere of influence, be it screw, string, knot, arm, hand ... perhaps this is an indication that we should learn just how far to go without doing damage or producing worthless or destructive work. Maat
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Post by lauderdale on Oct 4, 2007 6:46:30 GMT
"All I can say Steve its better to be bonkers than boring.
Bro Bill, if you have never said a true word, you have said it there! Whatever else you may be Bill, like me you are seldom if ever boring! If that makes us both "Bonkers" then tis folly to be wise!
People join and leave Fora be they Masonic or about Fly Fishing. I should know, I have done so here and elsewhere when I have disliked some policy on the part of a Moderator or Moderators, if the situation has changed I have come back. That is the way of Fora, but the Forum usually continues as it was. This Forum has lasted a good while as indeed have others, that is the proof of the pudding.
Co-Masonry is a subject which seems to arouse strongly held views on both sides especially as it generally seems to bring in the vexed twin subjects of "Regularity and Recognition" sooner or later and both of us have seen and participated in very heated discussions thereon on other Fora, some running to 30 pages or more.
Would abolishing a separate Co-Masonic section change this? I think not. If a topic is likely to be controversial it will engender robust discussion and exchanges whichever Section it is posted to.
For that reason I feel it is best to have a separate section away from the General Section.
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Post by penfold on Oct 4, 2007 7:15:09 GMT
My personal take on this issue, not as a mod, but as a wee hamster..... I would be sad to see the area zapped into the ether, but I do feel that there is good grounds for closing it to new posts and thereby keeping all the masonic content in one bit, with the exception of the esoteric bits which do deserve there own space.
I'm not going to vote until I have properly made up my mind.....
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